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Genesis 9 was designed from scratch... not based on Genesis 1. The wireframes speak for themselves.
Genesis and Genesis 9 both look like generic humans. Is that the problem?
It is is clear that Genesis 9 is not in any way derived from, let alone a copy of, the original Genesis. The topic has run its course and now needs to end.
if having "nipples and navels" are "a "problem" to make a "human" or to make a single mesh then how exactly others artist or places like reallusion which also are doing the "single mesh" but with nipples and navel" are doing it without any issues and looking like human, i'm still failling to see how have nipples and navel can make hard a character to looks like a "male or female"???, how exctly having some "human features" which both male and female shares looks "less human", for me still bad excuses no matter how you are trying to "justify it other than "for the sake of simplicity".
as i've told for me all the genesis from 1 to 8 looks more "human than g9 cuz they have "human features which g9 was purposelly throw away.
That is what all the dials and sliders are for to turn it into whatever likeness you want. You are responsible for how real it looks with your adjustments. Daz just gives you the shape and general presets to get you started. Character creator make products that have those "real" features I guess your looking for in "their" custom shape.
is important to remember topology/retopology and shape are 2 different things,
shape is about the form/shape of the mesh and topology is about the vertices and how they will guide and help in the make of the shape, the genesis 9 retopology is a lot too genereic and while for sculpters it is "more easy" to sculpt for the final user or customer is bad because it was too simplified to a point where details are all in HD and base character lose all his means, where the only way you can proper have the full use of the character is on really high level of hds, which is the issue, the uniform retopology in the way it was made make the character "less human" and more generic humanoid type", for peoples trying to make non humans maybe it can be amazing but for peoples want more "human and realism" in base mesh or low level of hd its pretty much a waster of money, buy/use genesis 9, unless you have to pay "more extras for the nipples navels and all the missing "features" which are supposed to be in the base mesh which now must be "purchuased apart" like the anatomical elements and this sort of thing throw me off a lot because it start to feel like more being greedy" by overtime making body parts being "sold apart" for the sake of "make easy for artists and all bla bla bla.
Also topology is important for "rigging" and pose", because it's rules how the mesh will deform, the better the topology the more natural will be the bend and less dependant on JCM or "HD" it will be.
again the reason many peoples are using metahuman characters head with genesis 8 or genesis 8.1 body or others version is for the same "bad reason" because it's a model with a generic simplified topology in the same way as daz did in genesis 9(which make me believe they get "inspired by it", because it's really look's a lot like the same retopology almost like a copy(they have some differences but overal when you look to both meshes they are pretty much alike, maybe metahuman overal still have more polygons but the topology is almost the same.]
Thanks for raising these points. Now I am starting to understand the complaints about "noodle joints". I can also see why DAZ have to "give away" HD with this generation because, without it, it would probably look like a Barbie Doll. I'm not a fan of HD because it is not possible to send it to Blender and do stuff with it (form what I understand from those who use modelling applications). I would like to learn more about making character morphs, adding fine detail and doing more of the things that I pay PAs to do for me right now but I'm wondering whether that has been made less or more possible with the introduction of G9.
that is the problem with bad retopology, because it's the retopology which rules how the deformations gonna pay, a simplified and uniform retopology like that really need a high level of polygons to "work", while on low to average number of polygons a good retopology can make a amazing work without need the high number of polygons and it can help with some details for the normal map, like the "nipples case" which again for "game dev" genesis 9 is only good if you want to "play safe" and use family friendly or full clothed characters, if you want any "nude" character to "move"
the topology is not just to give "amazing breasts and nipples" or navel but to also helps for when trying to pose or animate the character, a good topoligy easy remove or reduce the needs of hd levels or corrective morphs, where a bad topolgy make would make then mandatory.
while also creating this "unncaning valley" feelings which some peoples like me are having with g9.
Which is also the same issue as "metahuman" which many peoples have with metahuman, you have a "amazing head" with a bad body.
So I guess I got on the G9 train when I decided to purchase the Genesis 9 Essential Shapes Bundle.
I played around with the 4 default mats (MAT01, MAT02, MAT03 and MAT04) that come with G9 and the eyebrows and eyelashes from the essentials kit. I played around with a few of the shapes from the bundle on MAT03 and MAT04. This is what I got with just a little bit of playing tonight, but I think you can probably do a lot more with the shapes to make them match the MATS. I wish it came with morphs from the MAT pictures, but I didn't see a way to do that.
For hair I used Soft Curls Ponytail for Genesis 9 (with the sale) and Omri Hair for Genesis 2 Female(s) (which I picked up from the weekly freebies not too long ago). I'm sure I could probably do much better with the hair and face for MAT03, but this is a start and maybe others will enjoy viewing how they look?
When I first saw G9 appear in my library I also did a comparison of G9 vs G8 vs V8.1. I don't have V9 yet, but I wanted to give a comparison on what the best of V8 was since G9 looked so much better than G8! These all are OOB loads, but G9 loads without any MATS so I picked MAT02 for the comparison. One thing that you will notice is that G9 does not play very well with hair made for G8 when it's long. The hair tends to freak out by the neck area. These were all default loads with mostly default poses for the characters. The G9 pose also seemed kind of weird with the hand not leaning on the hip, but maybe that was done so that if she had been wearing clothes it would fit better?
Anyway, I think I'll have a lot to play with for a while with just the Essentials bundle and I'll hold off on getting anything more for now. I do wonder if the makeup kit Victoria 9 HD Makeup (which says it just needs Genesis 9) can work on darker skin tones. If it does, I might buy that. Has anyone tried it yet?
not until theres more stuff available. to see how 9 performs on my pc. ive gone back to 3 because 8 took too long to load even with just the morphs i needed.
meanwhile, i have a lot more morphs for g3 and they load as fast as they should.
Yes they do. Unfortunately.
Yeah, the G1 body mesh looks pretty good compared to one on G9...
- vicky's expressions are lacking detail, they're still afraid to put wrinkles on a woman's face
- base g9 really resembles chris jones' "average face," influenced by it maybe?
. i wish they used injected morphs like v4
nice to unify sexes but now load times will be even longer
Neither. G9 has given me the excuse I didn't know I needed to get out of 3D art altogether. Now I can focus entirely on my writing.
that's an interesting train to jump on. Good luck and hope to see what you write someday ... or perhaps you have some published works?
"vicky's expressions are lacking detail, they're still afraid to put wrinkles on a woman's face"
lol, no one is "afraid to put wrinkles on a woman", geez. You don't have the FACS Detail Strength slider on. It allows you to control as much of the detail as you want, in case you don't want as much, or you might be working with a cartoon character where realistic folds and lines would look strange.
those look decent. more age lines would be cool to have though. I would imagine a PA will intro an aging package sooner or later.
Aging is a character specific trait, not an animated trait of expression. So they'd be part of a character's face.
here is a comparison between all the the genesis base mesh without eye and mouth just the body mesh, all the retopology and polygons in general:
front
back
the test which i did genesis 2 had more polygons and better topology it have 4100 vertices
genesis 9 have more uniform topology with little details and around 3700 vertices
genesis1 have a less detailed topology compared with genesis 2 and have around 3400 vertices
genesis 3 to 8.1(which is basically the same body) have a less detailed version of genesis 2 and aroun 2600 vertices.
genesis 3 to 8 was the one with lowers polygons but topology was still good when compared with genesis and genesis 2 which had more polygons and more detailed topology
genesis 9 was the second with "most polygons in the body" losing only to genesis 2, however it have the less detailed and "more simple topology making it being the less "human accurace" among all genesis.
now let's go to the full body mesh excluding meshes for eyes parts and mouth parts, just the body mesh:
genesis front
genesis back
genesis 2 front
genesis 2 back
genesis 3, 8 and 8.1 front (all use the same geometry making being the same geometry mesh)
genesis 3, 8 and 8.1 back
genesis 9 front
genesis 9 back
overal genesis 9 have more polygons with 25k vertices the second is genesis 2 with 16k followed by genesis with 14 and in last g3, g8 and g8.1 since all of then use the same polycount then they count equal, this means which g9 have more polygons however that poly count goes more to the uniform mesh and it is on some places like hands and head, when comes to body it lose to genesis 2 and when comes to "human accurace and details" it lose to all of the previous genesis since it's more "generic" shape to make it "easy to deal into "monsters", also his own retopology make it less accurace and more dependant on jcm and high hd levels to have better distortions for poses and animations making it the "less accurace of the all genesis.
the only real advantage of g9 over all others is the "extra polygons" and more generic body mesh when comes to non human characters, however when comes to "human' it's by far the less accurace of then.
This is a base level morph on G9. No HD sculpting at all, only base verts moved, and just one level of subdivision.* lt is up to everyone's individual discretion whether they think the model can introduce enough realistic contours. I’m unlikely to change anyone’s mind here. However, I cannot help but feel like comments that the G9 model can only make monsters, or only ______, are at best misinformation.
Flow direction poles aren't always an answer. Animation, weight maps, and even Zbrush brushes do not favor convergence poles. They cause strange behavior in all 3 situations because of edge tension differences, and have a bad habit of exerting shape behavior which isn’t always in support of the shape.
*IRAY can have shadow issues if you don't dice at least once.
Thanks. Nothing yet, though I'm still hoping to make the NY Times Best Seller list at least once before kicking this mortal coil someday. I write Sci-Fi and Horror fiction, and recently finished the first draft of a new project. It's a coming-of-age story with a Sci-Fi twist.
LOL...that little slider makes all the difference, don't it?
@Ellessarr
I don't know why you're belaboring the point. It's not like they are going to change anything about G9 NOW.
it's getting easier to convert stuff as technology advances so I don't really see a problem
especially if one uses other software besides DAZ studio
so much of that for free too
nobody is stuck with one mesh or rigging
I'm not into horror much, but my son hads done quite a few horror book covers and illustrations. He's a pretty decent horror artist, if you need someone down the road that oyu don;t feel like doing.
@AllenArt
yeah i do know it, but this is to at last show why some peoples are on the fence and maybe avoid g10 not be a g9 clone and have the same issues again, like g3 to g8 and g8.1
g9 have some strengts like more polygons can means more details but only when done in the right way, not in a way where you "lose details" on some places to add in others,
the "monster thing" is more to show which as the moderators and "devs" told the reason the g9 was made in this way, was to it be more flexible to be able to make more than "basic human or humanoid character, for some artists be able to make things "more crazy", since they don't have to worry about the shape and retopology and even uvs being very simplified making the mesh really flexible, however in trade they decided to remove some "details like navel and nipples (which could be done in a way).
Good to know, thanks.
+1.
I can't wait for M9 to be released, I think he's my favourite of all Daz characters ever.
Also - in case people weren't aware - ALL the meshes in the wireframes posted were created by the same person. Maybe after doing it for so long there's actually a bit of experience and knowledge behind it, and not just 'lazy' topology :)
Yup
Ok, now I'm excited for Mike. Males are my thang...lol. I do use females once in a great, but I lean toward the males mostly so I'll REALLY be glad when they start showing up :) And if Mada thinks it might be her fave character ever, then that's good enough for me.
Hope he arrives "soon" and has a cool outfit to go with (I was/am a big fan of the House Brownie outfit...hehe).
is very common "even experienced peoples or "professionals make "mistakes" you don't need to be a new to make mistakes