Getting on the 9 train, or not

SolitarySandpiper

Wonderland said:

Another issue I have with G9 is that the lips seem "mushier." There are so many small muscles in human lips and G8(1) and even V4 seem the best at these micro expressions. I don't know the correct names for what's under the hood, but are there less vertices or quads or polygons or whatever they are called in the lips? I had this same problem with all Genesis models until G8. 

i'm struggling with the lips too...they often spoil an otherwise acceptable(ish) expression.

Mattymanx

Wonderland said:

Another issue I have with G9 is that the lips seem "mushier." There are so many small muscles in human lips and G8(1) and even V4 seem the best at these micro expressions. I don't know the correct names for what's under the hood, but are there less vertices or quads or polygons or whatever they are called in the lips? I had this same problem with all Genesis models until G8. 

Do you have the Genesis 9 Essential Shapes Bundle installed?  There is a lot of controls for hte mouth and lips for G9. 

Mattymanx

kyoto kid said:

Mattymanx said:

A HUGE help in getting the different sizes is the built in Proportional morphs that come with the base figure.

Depending on the outfit, you will still get some shrink wrapping of the boobs and some distortion around them as well but overall its not as bad as G8 and G3.  Smoothing modifiers are more effective because of how well it auto fits now.   The bra fit perfectly instead of looking like it was a larger bra taped to smaller cleavage.  As for the tank top, its G3M's basicwear tank and I had to manuall fit it and scale it down so it didn;t look like she was camping in it.  Also did it to get a proper drape across her chest so it would shrink wrap her.

...ah, so the tank top wasn't auto fitted.  I don't mind manually fitting hair, that's easy and necessary to keep the movment and styling morphs (been doing that since Gen4) but clothing is a different and sometimes more complex matter, particularly when posing. 

I orginally was ging to use the Yuki crop top but it was a tad short but still fitted well.  I got into the habit of manually fitting clothes with the optitex stuff and what I can tell you is to parent the clothing to the figures hip, zero the transforms for the outfit and then start posting the outfit from there.  I normally only do tops.  It takes longer but you can have full control over the scale and position of nodes before draping. 

Oso3D

It's not a superior attitude, sorry if I gave that impression. The complaint was made that G9's design work requires HD, which is only available to DAZ PAs.

I was attempting to point out that this is not at all the case, and the workflow of HD work baked to Normals is absolutely available to everyone, and is commonly used in other applications and arenas.

If you don't have an interest in making your own content, then it's all irrelevant since you'll be picking up content from other people just like you did before.

 

Oso3D

There is a dial for 'mouth stickiness' that may be worth turning on or off. It basically, well, makes the lips adhere slightly when close together. This can increase the realism of some expressions, but may interfere with what you are attempting to do.

 

marble

Oso3D said:

It's not a superior attitude, sorry if I gave that impression. The complaint was made that G9's design work requires HD, which is only available to DAZ PAs.

I was attempting to point out that this is not at all the case, and the workflow of HD work baked to Normals is absolutely available to everyone, and is commonly used in other applications and arenas.

If you don't have an interest in making your own content, then it's all irrelevant since you'll be picking up content from other people just like you did before.

 

 

Sure. I get that. I probably didn't make my point well enough. I wasn't suggesting, for example, that ZBrush is the only way to create details using Normal Maps - I'm pretty sure that can be done either in Blender or in Blender combined with Materialize or something similar. The impression I was getting from the discussion was that we are stuck with a poor base mesh and have the option of buying vendor produced detailed HD morphs or learn how to create those morphs ourselves in an external application.

Now, how different this is from previous generations I don't know because I have not played with G9 at all. I have a whole raft of morph packages for G8 which I use extensively to create my own shapes but, as I said before, I try to avoid HD because of all the poke-through issues. So here's a question: are all the nice shaping morphs from vendors going to be HD for G9? If so, I believe that other areas of DAZ Studio technology needs to catch up. Otherwise, are we expected to create our own normal maps?

WendyLuvsCatz

you can have Dforce drape over HD

it's in the settings 

set figure HD with a high subdivision in viewport

AllenArt

100% Breast Gone and 10% Breast Small. This is on the androgenous model. Dial in masculine and the chest caves in.

marble

WendyLuvsCatz said:

you can have Dforce drape over HD

it's in the settings 

set figure HD with a high subdivision in viewport

 

 

My PC is busy with a render at the moment but I thought that my settings were as you show. I'll check again as maybe they have been reset at some point.

Richard Haseltine

AllenArt said:

100% Breast Gone and 10% Breast Small. This is on the androgenous model. Dial in masculine and the chest caves in.

That would be expected - the masculine morph is flattening the in-between breast shape, which you have already done with the other morphs, so the net result is to double flatten.

xyer0

Timbales said:

I am specifically talking about the creases and shapes that are still visible under the breast, not the shoulders. And they get even worse when you dial in the male shape. 

If I'm the only person in the world that cares that these are there, that's fine. But it's starting to feel like I'm being gaslit and being told they aren't there when they clearly are, and that I'm at fault for not thinking this is a good look. 

This was my first concern when I saw the G9 Base. After the Growing Up promos came out, I was disheartened. I still haven't seen a chest with zero underboob cleavage. I don't do nudes, but I wonder how a t-shirt will behave without cranking up the smoothing.

xyer0

AllenArt said:

100% Breast Gone and 10% Breast Small. This is on the androgenous model. Dial in masculine and the chest caves in.

That looks like a good workaround. Thanks for the formula, AllenArt! 

Mada

xyer0 said:

Timbales said:

I am specifically talking about the creases and shapes that are still visible under the breast, not the shoulders. And they get even worse when you dial in the male shape. 

If I'm the only person in the world that cares that these are there, that's fine. But it's starting to feel like I'm being gaslit and being told they aren't there when they clearly are, and that I'm at fault for not thinking this is a good look. 

This was my first concern when I saw the G9 Base. After the Growing Up promos came out, I was disheartened. I still haven't seen a chest with zero underboob cleavage. I don't do nudes, but I wonder how a t-shirt will behave without cranking up the smoothing.

This is with the breasts gone morph dialed in and shoulders down. Smoothing at default. Checker pattern used to show distortions :)

Plasma_ring managed to make a decent morph that seemed to hit the spot in dialing out the crease, I am sure there will be more :)
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/7843001/#Comment_7843001

 

Oso3D

marble said:

The impression I was getting from the discussion was that we are stuck with a poor base mesh and have the option of buying vendor produced detailed HD morphs or learn how to create those morphs ourselves in an external application.

This is the impression I was trying to counteract, I don't believe this is true at all.

In my opinion, the base mesh is an overall improvement. The fact it's twice the previous density makes it easier to get details in most respects, and it's easier to work with. It's like everyone got access to HD Subd .5

There are some very specific elements that are less easy with the base mesh, but folks have been provided with HD elements to cover them. For $0, you get far more than previous generations.

 

 

xyer0

Mada said:

xyer0 said:

Timbales said:

I am specifically talking about the creases and shapes that are still visible under the breast, not the shoulders. And they get even worse when you dial in the male shape. 

If I'm the only person in the world that cares that these are there, that's fine. But it's starting to feel like I'm being gaslit and being told they aren't there when they clearly are, and that I'm at fault for not thinking this is a good look. 

This was my first concern when I saw the G9 Base. After the Growing Up promos came out, I was disheartened. I still haven't seen a chest with zero underboob cleavage. I don't do nudes, but I wonder how a t-shirt will behave without cranking up the smoothing.

This is with the breasts gone morph dialed in and shoulders down. Smoothing at default. Checker pattern used to show distortions :)

Plasma_ring managed to make a decent morph that seemed to hit the spot in dialing out the crease, I am sure there will be more :)
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/7843001/#Comment_7843001

Thanks again, @Mada for the image! I just came from that other thread. 

Pendraia

shadowhawk1 said:

Any bets which one will have the longer lifespan, Genesis 9 or Genesis? 

 

9 it has better developer tools. I can also transfer my characters from genesis to 9 and also any of the other genesis figures. I'm just wanting a texture converter but I might have to give in and try blender again.

Pendraia

Oso3D said:

It should be noted that in a lot of arenas, the approach taken is generally to make a high polygon sculpt, project it onto a lower polygon figure, and then bake the difference as Normals. That process does not require HD tools.

Or, as I did here, just do it in basic resolution. 

And, like previous image, this uses no G9 elements that cost money.

Though, again, for less than $20 you can get the HD navel/nipples plus loads of shapes to play with. I don't know about you but even before I was a vendor I snapped up the base head/body shapes, and it's even cheaper now that it's not separated male and female.

 

Well said...

 

Pendraia

Mada said:

I made a quick pose preset to turn the base joint correctives on and off since it seems like it happens a lot - zero figure would be the biggest culprit since it will reset everything to zero. Restore figure is the better option to use.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hvvouec08i5dvm/BaseJointCorrectiveOn.zip?dl=0

That's very kind Mada. I think a lot of people who are complaining about the bends have it turned off.

Pendraia

RAMWolff said:

So with this new mesh set to be "inbetween" folks will be able to make small breasted women, trans folks, little kids and all that with no issues with how the clothing fits.  That's the idea any ways.  I've read this thread and a couple of others and folks seem so upset that nipples and navels are now just a morph and hi def map.  SO WHAT!  I think what it boils down to is folks don't like change but are intrigued enough to check it out and then complain about X Y & Z until they get used to the new way!  LOL Cracks me up! 

Agreed Ram...happens with every new figure. 

Pendraia

Art2Eager said:

Actually, I just thought of something... does the simple topology of the Genesis 9 Mesh mean that every shirt will somehow automatically look good on both the male and female morph?

Because if so, that's amazing new technology! And if not, then the whole concept of a unisex mesh is kind of wasted here, right?

I mean, a shirt that looks bad when the slider is in one position or the other, if only because all the creases and folds and other little details are in the wrong places, is essentially a gendered shirt. It just takes extra steps to make it.

Any morph, male or female the clothing will autofollow on. How well it autofollows often depends on whether the clothing creator has done custom morphs for the shapes that cause issues. Generally custom morphs would only be done for core figures. That said if a shirt doesn't autofollow very well it would be very easy to create your own custom morph for it if it hasn't been included. I'm hoping that clothing that could be used by either gender will have custom morphs for both. 

 

Pendraia

Mattymanx said:

Art2Eager said:

Actually, I just thought of something... does the simple topology of the Genesis 9 Mesh mean that every shirt will somehow automatically look good on both the male and female morph?

Because if so, that's amazing new technology! And if not, then the whole concept of a unisex mesh is kind of wasted here, right?

I mean, a shirt that looks bad when the slider is in one position or the other, if only because all the creases and folds and other little details are in the wrong places, is essentially a gendered shirt. It just takes extra steps to make it.

 

That is the whole point of doing a unisex base mesh that can be either male or female.  Have the same outfit and hair look good for either.  This reduces production time and cost and saves the customer money as well.  

Definitely...but some shapes will need custom morphs for clothing.

Pendraia

WendyLuvsCatz said:

Mada said:

WendyLuvsCatz said:

it will only work if PAs don't do full body morphs

some refuse to separate out heads

we can ourselves if not HD

I don't follow why it won't work if its a full body morph?

oh do you mean for male/female... at least with the head/body splitter in dev tools its not too hard - and I suspect that QA will insist on the morphs being split up too.

yes male/female and the insistence of some having large bosoms with tiny waists

most humanoid figures there is a separate head morph and it's something I look for in characters but there definitely have been ones in past generations that don't have this. 

Ideally should be individual head and body sliders plus a slider that will do both or a pose preset to apply both at the same time....

Pendraia

kyoto kid said:

..so a few question after trying to digest t all I've read.

1. Are G9's skin textures (even non HD ones) 8K? 

No, only some are that large.

2. If so, can one reduce the skin map resolution back to 4K using a script like The Scene Optimiser?

Sorry I don't know with this one.

3. Do non HD textures look worse than HD ones when rendered?

There are bound to be differences when you render with different resolutions.

4. Is G9 radically different enough to the point that there will be no morph/shape transfer utilities from older generations like G3 an G8 (meaning you will have to buy all new figures/characters)?

A method for this has already been found and I've done and seen conversion of morphs from not only Genesis 8 but also earlier figures using the clones to assist with the transfer. Catherine has a thread on how to do it and from memory Jay has a video.

Given the return to the unimesh, am hoping to see the next release of the Skin Builder utility will work for male characters as well since G9 uses the same UV for both.  Hopefully we'll see a number of utilities that embrace both genders in the same package.

I hope you're right this would be really good.

RAMWolff

kyoto kid said:

RAMWolff said:

Daywalker Designs said:

RAMWolff said:

We will have to agree to disagree.  Normal maps are wonderful and can give allot of detail with out making the figures poly count overly bloated.  These maps are used to create everything from fine detail to bulging out veins and all the rest.  As a content creator I know what I talk about.  Just because I don't work for DAZ 3D doesn't make me just an average user.   

Unfortunately, there are a lot of end users that want companies like DAZ3D to make something that fits their desired use case instead of learning how to make do with what they got. 

We all have moments like that but many folks have a really hard line to cross when they are used to how something works instead of being OPEN to new and advantageous improvements.  What they may think is a step back eventually makes sense unless they just refuse to accept, learn and realize that it's better.  I mean some folks still think that Aiko 3 is the cats meow but there will always be those that don't embrace change or as you stated want things the way they want things..... It is what it is!   

...well, of all the versions of AIko, the gen3 release is still the cutest.  As time went on she began to look more and more like a realistic person and less anime inspired. I know, there have been others who tried to take her place, but Aiko3 is still my go to for that style.. 

I loved Aiko and Hiro but the rigging and mouth morphs were .... really bad.  Couldn't get a smile that looked even remotly natural from either figure without some help in some way.   

nonesuch00

RAMWolff said:

So with this new mesh set to be "inbetween" folks will be able to make small breasted women, trans folks, little kids and all that with no issues with how the clothing fits.  That's the idea any ways.  I've read this thread and a couple of others and folks seem so upset that nipples and navels are now just a morph and hi def map.  SO WHAT!  I think what it boils down to is folks don't like change but are intrigued enough to check it out and then complain about X Y & Z until they get used to the new way!  LOL Cracks me up! 

It also means that infants to about age 3 or 4 will be much easier to make realistic shaped. I know lots of people have complained about past efforts being down right scary.

nonesuch00

Mada said:

xyer0 said:

Timbales said:

I am specifically talking about the creases and shapes that are still visible under the breast, not the shoulders. And they get even worse when you dial in the male shape. 

If I'm the only person in the world that cares that these are there, that's fine. But it's starting to feel like I'm being gaslit and being told they aren't there when they clearly are, and that I'm at fault for not thinking this is a good look. 

This was my first concern when I saw the G9 Base. After the Growing Up promos came out, I was disheartened. I still haven't seen a chest with zero underboob cleavage. I don't do nudes, but I wonder how a t-shirt will behave without cranking up the smoothing.

This is with the breasts gone morph dialed in and shoulders down. Smoothing at default. Checker pattern used to show distortions :)

Plasma_ring managed to make a decent morph that seemed to hit the spot in dialing out the crease, I am sure there will be more :)
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/7843001/#Comment_7843001

 

Looks totally normal shaped.

Pendraia

PerttiA said:

RAMWolff said:

PerttiA said:

RAMWolff said:

 I've read this thread and a couple of others and folks seem so upset that nipples and navels are now just a morph and hi def map.  SO WHAT!  I think what it boils down to is folks don't like change but are intrigued enough to check it out and then complain about X Y & Z until they get used to the new way!  LOL Cracks me up! 

So, what is the method you use to make your own morphs to the G9 pokies and navel?

Well I'm not a PA here, I work mostly in Poser but have developed for DS in the past and Genesis 9 is wooing me back to the fold as I really really loved Genesis 1 for the male/female ease of use.  I'm a ZBrush person so for me making nips and navels are no big deal and then just add in a Normal map and you have what you need. 

So, you don't have an answer. 

Whatever the PA's can do is of no interest, it's about what we the users can do and normal maps are not the solution.

Well users can create geografts for areas like the navel and nipples or even use displacement maps. Would it be nice to be able to create hd morphs? Sure, but is it necessary to get the same or similar results? No....

Pendraia

maikdecker said:

Mada said:

G9 is really not supposed to be used out-of-the-box. :)

So it's a free product that can't be used without the user buying the stuff to make it work or products, that are made by PAs who have the stuff to make their products work?!?

It can be used as is or by creating your own morphs. Is it as good as a custom character? No.

Richard Haseltine

Pendraia said:

kyoto kid said:

..so a few question after trying to digest t all I've read.

1. Are G9's skin textures (even non HD ones) 8K? 

No, only some are that large.

2. If so, can one reduce the skin map resolution back to 4K using a script like The Scene Optimiser?

Sorry I don't know with this one.

Yes, Scene Optimiser handles Genesis 9, including the detail maps - I just tested it, though I didn't doubt that it would.

3. Do non HD textures look worse than HD ones when rendered?

There are bound to be differences when you render with different resolutions.

4. Is G9 radically different enough to the point that there will be no morph/shape transfer utilities from older generations like G3 an G8 (meaning you will have to buy all new figures/characters)?

A method for this has already been found and I've done and seen conversion of morphs from not only Genesis 8 but also earlier figures using the clones to assist with the transfer. Catherine has a thread on how to do it and from memory Jay has a video.

Given the return to the unimesh, am hoping to see the next release of the Skin Builder utility will work for male characters as well since G9 uses the same UV for both.  Hopefully we'll see a number of utilities that embrace both genders in the same package.

I hope you're right this would be really good.

Pendraia

Richard Haseltine said:

Pendraia said:

kyoto kid said:

..so a few question after trying to digest t all I've read.

1. Are G9's skin textures (even non HD ones) 8K? 

No, only some are that large.

2. If so, can one reduce the skin map resolution back to 4K using a script like The Scene Optimiser?

Sorry I don't know with this one.

Yes, Scene Optimiser handles Genesis 9, including the detail maps - I just tested it, though I didn't doubt that it would.

3. Do non HD textures look worse than HD ones when rendered?

There are bound to be differences when you render with different resolutions.

4. Is G9 radically different enough to the point that there will be no morph/shape transfer utilities from older generations like G3 an G8 (meaning you will have to buy all new figures/characters)?

A method for this has already been found and I've done and seen conversion of morphs from not only Genesis 8 but also earlier figures using the clones to assist with the transfer. Catherine has a thread on how to do it and from memory Jay has a video.

Given the return to the unimesh, am hoping to see the next release of the Skin Builder utility will work for male characters as well since G9 uses the same UV for both.  Hopefully we'll see a number of utilities that embrace both genders in the same package.

I hope you're right this would be really good.

 

Thanks Richard...I was hoping someone could answer that for Kyoto.