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I haven't tried yet but in theory dressed textured single mesh spandex characters should be easier to create
RawArt will no doubt do some No Suits will be able to apply both
Actually, I just thought of something... does the simple topology of the Genesis 9 Mesh mean that every shirt will somehow automatically look good on both the male and female morph?
Because if so, that's amazing new technology! And if not, then the whole concept of a unisex mesh is kind of wasted here, right?
I mean, a shirt that looks bad when the slider is in one position or the other, if only because all the creases and folds and other little details are in the wrong places, is essentially a gendered shirt. It just takes extra steps to make it.
I bought Gen 8 right away and spent a lot of time waiting for resources to come out to really make it useful.
I do like the fact that Gen 9 morphs from male to female like Genesis did, so I won't have to buy 2 sets of morph sets and it will be easier to exchange hair and certain clothing items. So I expect that my investment will be a little less expensive than 8. I totally skipped 8.1.
I think I'll wait a while this time before taking the plunge.
That is the whole point of doing a unisex base mesh that can be either male or female. Have the same outfit and hair look good for either. This reduces production time and cost and saves the customer money as well.
Yeah maybe I can be classified as a 'hater' as I don't fall head over heels for the G9 train LOL. It's shiny, it's new. Did I take a ride on it? Yeah. But will I do it whenever I want to go to Renderland? Probably not. Not because I fear changes, it's just that I am not smart enough to spot how G9 trains will make G8 ones inferior.
I just revamped some of my G8 trains with some new paints and new glass windows and dare I say they look prettier and shinier than their G9 counterparts, which, maybe because I am a bad painter, need quite some repainting work to not look dusty and dry LOL
it will only work if PAs don't do full body morphs
some refuse to separate out heads
we can ourselves if not HD
I don't follow why it won't work if its a full body morph?
oh do you mean for male/female... at least with the head/body splitter in dev tools its not too hard - and I suspect that QA will insist on the morphs being split up too.
So, what is the method you use to make your own morphs to the G9 pokies and navel?
yes male/female and the insistence of some having large bosoms with tiny waists
most humanoid figures there is a separate head morph and it's something I look for in characters but there definitely have been ones in past generations that don't have this.
For those who do want a good reason to start using Genesis 9: - The below image uses V9 with the Essential Shapes bundle plus Growing Up for G9 on the teen and what comes with the G9 base. So three products to make both an adult and teen.
Both pair of shorts are G8F, tops are G3F and G3M. Out of the box, Genesis 9 is handling previous generation clothing extremely well compared to its predecessors.
Yes using normal maps for G9 instead of HD is certainly an option, if this is what you mean. But it will only work by a distance not for closeups if you need to show the details silhouette. With G1-G8 we get a detailed topology so we don't need HD for the basic body features, with G9 you do, again that's why G9 is HD based.
p.s. As for your "basic resolution navel" you need to show a closeup of the wireframe to prove your point, unless it's a normal map.
I'm sure everyone worked really hard on this and I appreciate that well-regarded PAs are here giving their time and effort to support this. I haven't seen anything I like well enough to do even make me want to download the free stuff, and every picture posted that's supposed to convince me just pushes me further away. I think maybe I'm just not the target audience for the G9 aesthetic.
That boat sailed. G9 is what it is. They're not going to change the mesh. They're just going to defend it and try to convince you it's great. And for them, I think maybe it is great. It doesn't look that great to me, but PAs all have the special tools to do what they want, and we don't. So, for PAs, G9 is probably a playground. For us, G9 is more of a "keep your paws off" figure. At least that's how it looks to me.
My point is that in most conventional renders the difference between a basic and high definition navel is irrelevant. If something is somewhat more defined but people can't tell in most renders, then the impact is rather less.
To clarify: yes, navels and nipples have slightly less definition with Genesis 9. This is a negative. The design of the torso, however, allows significantly better handling of clothing fits. This is a HUGE positive. On the whole, it is a really beneficial trade-off. And it's a trade-off: to get a mesh that will work much more smoothly with clothing and varying shapes, a more regularized topology is necessary.
Also people really overestimate the degree to which silhouette will matter. I have access to HD morphs, and I don't usually bother with HD unless I'm doing SUPER deep wrinkles or sharp bits on a monster. For humans? It's nice, but not necessary in most cases.
If you REALLY REALLY need closeups of navels in great detail, there is an easy set of HD options available for a fairly low price. (And I'm sure there will be loads more in time, including exotic stuff like geograft or whatever)
Not trying to convince anyone it's great, but informing folks as to reasons that might not be clear. It has nothing to do with special tools or keeping content away from the rank and file users, but specific reasons that have been outlined. Specifically, Genesis 9 is significantly improved on handling clothing fits, which has been a topic of discussion for a very long time. The changes made are to improve this experience.
And as for design, again... the basic mesh has been easier to work with than prior generations. I made a dog person. With dog teeth. None of it is HD, I didn't need it.
So, I wanna be clear that I'm not posting this to prove that you can do just as well with the G9 navel as you could with G8's dedicated topology--especially since I don't claim to be good at sculpting--but I do think it's weird to be doubting people's word over this? I'm not a PA so I don't have access to HD tools, and it's entirely possible to do a morph like the one Oso posted without them. This is at subdivision 1. It's hard to do it by sculpting in a small area, but if you make a larger indentation and then move the sides inward you can get more depth and shape the edges of the hole a bit. You just have to be careful not to warp the mesh so much it stretches the texture. I don't know if that's how Oso did it and I don't expect this to rise to your standards for a morph, but there are options between full HD and slightly moving a vertex inward.
The other important thing about a navel (or any other stuff) is making it part of the texture. It doesn't have to have all the geometry if it LOOKS like a navel.
If I were designing my own detailed navel, what I'd do is make a HD sculpt (which anyone can do), use it to make a basic resolution navel (projection in Zbrush, Blender has shrink wrap, I believe), then bake the difference as normals (there are a bunch of applications that will do this).
If you are making your own skin, use the HD sculpt as the model for painting it.
The same approach works for other HD stuff. Anyone CAN work with HD sculpting, you just have to do it in the more standard way, where the HD detail is baked into the texture.
That's exactly my point, and your example proves it thank you.
That's the limit with G9, you can't do it because the base topology doesn't allow it. That is, you can bake "high-frequency" details to normal maps once the base topology supports the "low-frequency" figure shape, but if the base topology misses a body feature entirely there's nothing to support the basic shape, as in the nipples and navel example, so you need displacement aka HD instead of normal maps.
But yes, sure you can always approximate everything with textures, or even use photoshop to paint details if you only care for the final result.
What do you hope to accomplish by ceaselessly shouting the same point?
Here's a basic resolution morph, and then the same with Normals baked from a HD sculpt.
It took me about ... 15 mins to whip up in Zbrush and maybe 5 mins to bake it in Substance Painter, and I'm sure you can do similar in Blender or a dozen other apps.
@Oso3D That is a nice example where the G9 base mesh works fine, because the skull shape is "low-frequency" aka "smooth enough", try to place spikes on them and the G9 mesh may break depending on the "high-fequency" you use. But this is not what I was talking about, since a "skull chest" is not a basic human body feature, in this case even G1-G8 may need HD.
p.s. As for the "huge positive", you can use a projection template that's a simple mesh wrapped to the figure, no need to sacrifice the figure topology. But that's another story apart and not relevant here since G9 is designed that way.
@Gordig The purpose is to explain the G9 limits, so that the artists here are aware and can evaluate G9 better, that's what this discussion is for. Specifically in this case I'm mostly replying to @Oso3D to explain why G9 is HD based, that may not be clear to others as well.
..OK color me impressed, this is what I needed to see.
The difference in bust size and profile between the older and younger character looks far more natural than what I get with G3 and G8 even using Growing Up and/or several breast fix utilities
To do what you did here with G3 and G8 has been a constant struggle having to make a bunch of different adjustments using various morph tools. Even so, clothing textures, particularly any with stripes or patterns tend to distort sometimes badly.
I have been struggling to get the GOGO dress to fit a slender and slightly lanky "twiggy" like character. and it's been a nightmare, particularly with G3. Using a different G8 teen base (which already has a smaller bust profile) helped a bit but I still cannot use the black & white texture without it distorting badly. I also get a bulge in the middle of the chest which is due to a "fit helper" modelled into the clothing mesh to prevent the old "saran wrap" look around the breasts.
Seems that G9 gets around this quite well.
Still to recreate my characters with G9 will need more utilities and resource content than currently is available which means a fair amount of extra expense. . Also not sure how well custom character design will work just with morphs and no sculpting, the latter which sounds like will be necessary for any serious work.
I can see what you're saying, but I think most people are used to making tradeoffs around their hardware and available tools depending on the final results they want. Nobody is saying that there are no tradeoffs inherent to G9, but rather that the tradeoffs are worth it to them because it's better suited to what they want to do. I render a lot of nipples and navels and G8 has more tools for that; we also have geografts and HD morphs and collision tools and custom movement controls that were created because people felt it wasn't enough. I have a decent computer and can render HD characters, but at some point I ended up converting my workflow to the same thing that's common in games: the lowest poly count I can get away with where it doesn't look like a Lego brick masquerading as a person, and lean on textures for the detail.
It's been brought up a few times further back in the thread, and there are a couple already available for G9. A full breast graft is probably coming soon from an adult creator on another site. So far the most common point of debate has been that it's unacceptable to have to lean on a third-party graft, but...most of those tools already exist for G8 because people weren't much more satisfied with G8's level of detail and utility in that area than they are with G9's.
@richardandtracy Because geografts make sense to add new features to a figure, the basic features should be there. Also geografts don't usually play well with autofit. But yes, geografts are another possible workaround to the G9 limits.
Also, I say this as an adult content creator: it's worth remembering that regardless of how many people are using Daz products for erotic artwork, Daz is not going out of their way to develop products for that and probably are never going to prioritize how good Vicky looks topless at low resolution. Utility in that area has always fallen to third-party creators; there's a reason some of the most popular products completely replace the Daz versions. It's entirely predictable for a mainstream company to weigh what they feel broadens their audience vs. the ability of people who may not even be selling with them to make custom nipple morphs, c'mon.
@plasma_ring
As for detailed topology it's not just navel and nipples, it's everywhere the whole figure.
@Mattymanx @Oso3D @kyoto_kid
I'm not a fan of autofit because usually doesn't work fine, but since everyone is talking about the incredible autofit features of G9 then I tried. Below there's the simple G2 Persian Top on G9, the result is not impressive it seems fine until you pose, then you see the bracelet goes to the elbow in G9 while it should stay above as in G2. This could be a problem or not depending on the outfit.
Starter Essentials has HD morphs for nipples and navel (unlike Gensis 8, which as I recall had only the navel)
I really think each generation has its benefits. G1/2 for stylized non-realistic cute characters or simple creatures. G3 for idealized realistic supermodels with somewhat limited realistic expressions but beautiful faces and bodies, G8(1) for detailed realism (especially with purchased addons, some no longer in the store) that is very versatile, going from beautiful to ugly realism as well as stylized 'and creatures with realistic expressions and the most addons to create whatever you want, and now G9 for realistic portraits if you have problems with G8's eyes & lashes. So far I don't see any other real advantages to G9. And as I've mentioned before, the lack of separate facial surfaces ruins it for me and the PBR set up is too complicated for me to figure out how to change lip colors in a simple way or add gloss. Maybe if PAs add a way to add gloss to lips to their characters that would help me until I can figure it out myself but I really need a way to easily add gloss to lips and adjust the color to my liking. So with all the addons I have for G8, including trans, I don't really see much use for G9 until there is an easy way to to change lip color & add gloss that I can figure out and PAs would have to recreate all the zillions of detailed HD morphs and enhancements I have for G8 and I'd have to buy them all. I now have the V9 bundle, the morphs bundle, two G9 hairs and a Mousso character but I still don't see any advantages to G9 yet except in eye/lash realism for super closeup portraits. Maybe something great will be introduced in the future but yesterday I purchased new shoes for G3 on sale because as of now, I have more use for G3 than G9. But newbies should definitely jump on board and those who haven't invested heavily in G8.
I am mostly tending to say NO. I am not going on that train.
I might get some characters off and on, but I've stopped trying to transfer my character to G9, for there is no point, when joints are not better and customized expressions would take to much time to bring over.
Unlike Other opinions, I think that because of its geometry, G9 suits better for male characters.
To me, G9 is mostly a disappointment.