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Right! I know you're a mainframer, so surely you have experienced the old song and dance, "sorry, you're not running the current version/using a supported OS/haven't paid your fees, etcetera, so call us back when you have upgraded!" So then you have a choice. Upgrade or run your production workloads completely unsupported.
Seriously, I've had vendors hang up on me or on a team member once they find out that we were out-of-band on something critical such as an OS version, a patch level, a hardware feature or firmware level (the old term is "microcode", haha), or a database conversion level.
That is something that Apple does very well; drop old cruft like a hot potato. Microsoft, hanging on to it for 10 years or more, creates this thing called "Tech Debt" for itself and its customers, which can actually be a detriment to MSFT's customers. I don't think DAZ can afford to do it the Microsoft way. Oh sure, they can leave their old versions on a freebie download page, but just be clear to the guest that there is zero support, and if it breaks your system, you can have both pieces but not much more.
The only thing I'm mad at DAZ for is NOT making timely announcements for their neglected software such as Bryce, Hex, or Carrara. If you keep the customer in the dark regarding the product's lifecycle, that is doing a disservice to the customer. And hurting your own reputation at the same time.
Well old or not, I for one hope that there will be a working bridge between D/S 5+ to Hexagon. Thank you.
...If MS would have continued building new versions of the Windows on the model they used up to W7 I'd have few to any issues, but they royally mucked things up since then, first with the concept of a "one OS for all devices" (W8), and again with their "OS as a Service" philosophy (W10). All the "fluffware" should be optional after install and made available through their App store, not bundled with or in some cases (like IE, Edge, and Cortana) integrated into base OS functions. While W11 is ditching a number of undesirable and annoying features introduced in 8 and 10 and making it sound easier to get rid of others, not in a financial position to build a state of the art system to run it.
With Daz or any other software, I can continue using an older version (like Daz 4.12) with no serious complications other than not being able to get the "latest and greatest" shiny features that will be released in later versions (most in 4.15 don't even interest me).
Yeah, I'm still on Windows 7... more and more products are now saying Windows 10 required, hehehe.
I begrudgingly use my Win10 but when I start up my older Win7 rig it is like a breath of fresh air.
11 apparently will require yet another hardware update and I am just surviving financially as it is,
on the brightside I will subsequently be unable to buy more new content needing it so would save money there
I only got into computers after XP or would probably still be using that.
Not Vista which was my entry to computing though.
I ran for a full year in violation of our internal SLA with the full support of my manager and department head by running an unsupported version (3.5) of our backup software. The supported version was alternating between crashing under load or taking 4 times longer for the same processes as the unsupported version (and by doing so, making us miss the available window for backups). And in the previous 3 years our only support call was a "how do I'. Other than that, yeah - at least have a supported environment you can reproduce the problem on.
I personally doubt that DAZ is seeing the number of Mac users on the rise, but like you say, we don't have access to the numbers.
That's great that you're excited about Apple silicone. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes before any of them have enough memory to do any heavy lifting. The unified memory architecture presents some major challenges given how Iray functions, and I'm personally not holding my breath for NVIDIA to write any M1 specific code.
- Greg
...seems for GPU based rendering on an M1 system Daz would need to integrate Pro Render in the programme as well as rendering in Iray would still be slower going on the CPU. The one feature with Pro Render it uses open CL and RTX Nvida cards support version 3.0 as well as Vulkan 1.2. So PC users would still benefit.
ProRender is also free.
As one of my favourite commentators on YouTube says, "it's just a thought".
Recent worldwide statitstics show Mac uses in very close numbers with Windows 7 users (both quite small compared to Windows 10). What will happen, though, is that Mac uses are going up and Windows 7 users are going down (dropping by almost half between 2019 and 2020). Now, that also most likely means that Windows 10 users probobably went up by the same number that Windows 7 went down... they had to go somewhere, and any that jumped to Linux or Mac are probalby blips in the stats.
I very, very much doubt there'll ever be an m1/2/x version of a Mac chip that will see its GPUs used by iRay in any significant way (not that it's impossible); if you want fast iRay, get a Windows machine... or rather an NVidea machiine. That's what I'd do.
I'm not sure if we'll see "heavy lifting" Apple Silicon this year or next, but probably next year at the latest. One good thing about the Apple Silicon is that it's evolution isn't shackled to Intel's.
As kyoto kid points out Pro Render could be an option, but Octane already runs and uses the m1's GPUs, as well as the Redshift rendering engine. I'd love to see Cycles or Evee added to D|S, but I have my doubts it will. Personally, I'm in love with Filament. It's what I need.
As you point out, it's still very early days for the m1. Anyone thinking it's going to outperform a high-end graphic card wtih scad of RAM and/or VRAM is fooling themselves, but it's important to remember that the M1 is also the cheapest, lowest-powered Apple Silcon.chip. Anyone racing to compare their high-end video card against the lowest-end, slowest Apple Silicon chip should remember that.
in the meantiem, m1 chips using Rosetta2 have been running faster than their equivalewnt Intel Macs running Maya, C4D, Poser and Blender (some starting in November) which means they'll probably see even better non-GPU preformance down the road... and the next version of chips or the ones after that version will only get better.
I was going to wait to buy an m1 iMac until next year or the year after, but with a chance to test the pre-beta in a month or so (which is almost how long I'd have for the iMac) I'm probably going to order one this week.
-- Walt Sterdan
I really can't see a linux version happening. It would mean a complete re-write of the entire software. Porting is not the magical transformation all the write-once compile many advocates would have you believe. That model works well at a high level like widgets. Besides DAZ 3D provides 3D software simply to sell content, scripts, and plug-ins (shavers to sell razors). They are making bridges to software on all operating systems so again not a strong motivation to hire staff and spend a ton of time and money to build a new software.
LightWave is a good example of how difficult and expensive (time and money) to make a linux version of your software. Also which fork of Linux should the software be optimized for?
Now is the time for all good persons to come to the aid of the party. Please join the Blender furry friendly cult social group. We don't believe you are 2D we think everyone is 3D and once you join you will be 4D.
...the difference is Pro Render is free and could be ingenerated into Daz while Octane is only available by subscription. Making Pro Render available to both M1 and PC users would be an sensible move for Daz. It would also open GPU rendering to PC users with AMD GPUs, a "win-win" all around.
Pro Render is also used by more software vendors than Iray including C4D, Modo, and Solidworks (integrated) as well as via plugin for 3DS Max, Houdini, Maya, and Unreal Engine.
Oh, you don't have to sell me, I'd pay for it without hesitation, I promise! My point was that the work would still have to be done to get it into DAZ in some form, whereas anyone needing faster rendering on an m1 already has the option; there's also sending their files to Blender, C4D, Maya, etc. They could even do smaller preview iRay renders (it still works, just very slowly, and an m1 iRay render would still be faster than current equivalent Intel-based Mac would be) and send the larger final ones to Jack's render farm.. or buy a PC even if it's just for rendering. Hopefully a 3rd party (or open source group) could create it as a plug-in, but we're not expected to see a final, stable D|S5 for months, and I'm not sure what state the SDK woudl be in at that point. It's all future stuff, but I do like what I've seen of the Pro Render samples and test cases. The thought of everyone's GPUs probably being uses is also a bonus, Radeon users as well as NVidia, but I haven't looked at things like texture and shading support, or if it could use iRay files out of the box. Time will tell, but I do like the way you think.
-- Walt Sterdan
Even AMD's own reddit page full of AMD fanboys think Pro Render is not very good, that should tell you something. It is a poor man's substitute for Iray, and would be a huge step backwards if Daz added it. So no, just no.
When it comes to content creation software, whether we like it or not Nvidia's CUDA is head and shoulders above anything else. There is more at play than simply a rendering engine. Nvidia has done a great job supporting CUDA, and this is the biggest reason why so many creative software use CUDA in some form.
I used to chastise Daz for choosing to go with Iray, since it basically locks costumers into Nvidia for GPUs. But what were the options? Iray was one of the earliest GPU based PBR renderers, and again I point at the support that Nvidia gives for CUDA. I bet the support they got from Nvidia was the single biggest factor in Daz making that choice. I am still not thrilled about it, but at least I can understand it.
I can also understand why they would chose to drop Windows 7 support (this is not saying that DS5 will not support 7, we have no confirmation at this time). It takes resources to keep support going, but the real question here is why bother at this point? If Nvidia is not shipping any new drivers to 7, what possible purpose would Daz have to keep supporting 7 when practically nothing else does? The writing is on the wall guys. Windows 7 is dead. Daz would be pouring resources into a sinking ship, or rather, this ship has already sunk and sitting on the seabed.
Say what you want about Windows 10, it is where the people are. It is where the money is to be made. How much money are you Windows 7 users spending on Daz these days? That is another factor to consider here, at the end of the day, they have a business to run. Which users are spending the money, and I believe that Mac users might be spending more than W7 users. I could be wrong, but that sounds pretty logical to me. After all if you are willing to spend more for a Mac, I assume you are willing to spend on more on Daz content.
So if Daz is adding Mac support, it likely isn't because of the number of Mac users, but rather the amount of money those Mac users spend according to their data.
...actually over the years I have invested a fair amount in Daz content plugins and utilities. Dropping W7 support would change that significantly. I looked at other solutions such as setting up a W7 VM on a Linux host, and, while it would be a bit of a financial stretch, it is doable (much more so than building a whole new system for moving directly to 11 Pro at this point).. However, it still doesn't solve the Nvidia driver issue as rendering would be performed on the VM under W7 so that is no longer an option.
If 10 had an LSTC channel for the Pro Edition that didn't involve volume licensing it would be be different. Unfortunately LSTC is only available for Enterprise which is geared more towards commercial and institutional applications rather than individual workstations. .
Let's face Reality. Windows users who refuse to update will experience incresing difficulties until they either decide to update or give up on DAZ Studio. Linux users will never see a Linux version of DAZ Studio. I remember a few years ago some computer company released computers with Linux installed. They didn't sell. Apple computers are nice, but not good for DAZ Studio. You can't build a Mac computer to your desired specs.
Once we face Reality, our computer experience is vastly improved.
Other companies are also dropping support for Windows 7.
Greetings,
This has become another rants thread, and OS supremacy thread, unfortunately. I get that folks are scared their particular oxen will be gored, but if we can avoid anything that's not in the actual annoucement, it'd probably be easier for folks to read through it when they're back. But I'm on pain meds for a kidney stone, so I'm probably being rude, so please accept my zoned out apology.
Personally, I just want to know if dForce will work again on Catalina and Big Sur with DS5. I'm worried it won't because it uses a newer version of OpenCL (even for CPU calculations) that isn't supported on the Mac OS's anymore.
-- Morgan
I've seen this comment about dForce on Catalina several times in this thread. While I'm not sure the problem you're having is the same I had, I thougth it may be hepful to post this solution that worked for me (Macbook Pro 2019, Core i9) in the hopes it helps others. I was able to get dForce working again after an OS update seemed to break. While I was never able to get dForce to work on the AMD GPU, the built in Intel graphics did start working again. Details are here: Error initializing open CL Kernels
Is there something I am missing about dForce and Catalina? I just simmed something fine with it.
Greetings,
It hasn't worked for me for months. I've tried some of the suggestions from the thread @Montecristo links, in the past, and they didn't work. I should try again, but it seemed like there was an OpenCL compatability issue between macOS 10.15.7 and DAZ Studio 4.15.0.2 (and/or 4.15.0.14). I tried all the different targets, and none of them worked. I know I tried rebooting and starting fresh, but it didn't seem to help.
-- Morgan
Yeah... Again, when someone thinks owning or using something newer or more expensive than the others have, makes them somehow "better", they have an uncontrollable urge to start bashing others... Doesn't actually prove anything about their capabilities with that something they are promoting, and unfortunately the same applies to even support personel nowadays.
Well Branson and Virgin Galactic patted themselves on the back and claimed to have made a flight into space. Notwithstanding that they only achieved an high altitude assent to 85 km which is well short of the 100km where space actually begins. It was a nice and noteworthy achievement nevertheless but nobody who knows anything about space flight takes their claim of "space flight" seriously. I suppose I could be accused of an "uncontrollanle urge to bash others" but it's not my style to ignore inconvenient facts. Joe Walker in an X-15 back in 1963 already went to 108 km so this claim about so-called "new cacapabilities and new era" is not really supported by fact.
there is always Luxrender and Reality is now OpenSource
Imagine being able to just burn up 250,000.00 USD for a 90 minute flight adventure...
Edit:....and it is not really space. Yeah, watched Neil Degrasse Tyson say it is sub orbital and that they probably can't even see the Earth's curvature.
While we understand the concerns amongst users we must ask you you refrain from the discussion of which operating system is better than the other and turning this thread into an OS war.
Did we ever get a minimum requirement for Daz Studio 5.? I have a Nvidia GTX 1050 ti and hope it will work. It is my hope that I don't have to update for a couple of years. I don't really want to update my card until after I do a new computer with Os Windows 11.
It should be fine.
Well there are plenty of people who paid $3000 + for an Rtx 3090. At least their claim to fame was supported by something concrete in their rig and not some billionaire's wet dream of historic fame based on a falshood. Space flight is serious business, the preserve of who have undergone years of traning, the hard yards, earnt their university degrees and not flash-in-the-pan bored entrepreneurs with too much money they don't know what to do with. I suppose science, space flight and celebrity is the ultimate reality show mix. Too bad the media go along with such high jinks.
I hope you are right. I don't want to build a new computer right now. (I have a son that says he will do it for me...yeah...but for a fee...not so yeah.)
Came across this the other day and thought others might find the following table useful:
3.2
3.7
5.2
5.3
6.1
8.6
https://wccftech.com/nvidia-officially-retiring-driver-support-for-its-kepler-gpus-on-31st-august-farewell-geforce-600-700-first-titan-series-graphics-cards/
- Greg