3D Comic Book Tips And Pictures

FirstBastion

s

3Diva said:

Here's another in that render style. This one I added balloons to for some lettering practice as well as a glint effect on her sword.

 

The shading step detail on her pant legs is a digital colorist dream. If in doubt always go for a brighter image. Things always look darker once printed.

thedoctor

duckbomb said:

3Diva said:

 

Hey @mmitchell_houston all of your suggestions were well thought out and I couldn't agree with you more!  I feel the same as you on many points, but at the same time I'm constantly running into situations where people are just biased against 3D because they've seen so much bad that they refuse to give any more time to seeing if there could possibly be a good one out there.  I think, unfortunately, in 3D we suffer from consumers who lump all 3D together and then think "well I tried that, and it sucked", just like any other specific type of product.  When you see a badly drawn 2D comic (and there are a million of them), we know in the back of our heads that for ever bad example there is a good example, and overall I think we're just starting to scratch the surface of what 3D comics could look like.

For instance, if I were to draw a 2D comic I'd continue using the same wacom I've had for 10 years, I can use Adobe Photoshop 2010 because it still works, adn my comic will look amazing...  HOWEVER, here in 3D land I see peopel trying to use AI to create linework, merge applications together to create amazing vistas, even write custom scripts and algorithms that do something that until now there was no solution for.  This medium is moving FAST.  So fast, that the last page of evey comic I do looks different than the first because I've simply learned and grown in that short of a time period, something that just doesn't happen at this pace in the 2D/traditional inking world at this point.

I think that there will be great 3D comics, and simply keeping at it and being persistant will be key to being there front-row when it happens.  Until then, there will always be those biased against 3D, and there will be a crap-ton of them, because we live in a world exposed to everybody, and they're all watching us struggle, and test, and try, and (sometimes) fail, and the truth is that we may never win them over.  I think that abandoning the goal of winning those people over is the best thing we can do for ourselves, and focusing on making great comics is going to be the key forward.

OK I know that was a lot of words... as you can tell, I've struggled with this a bit, myself.  The bias is frickin' real...  But I agree with everything you said, and I could not have said it better myself :)

Very well said, @duckbomb. I recall when the Sony DVX1000 arrived followed by the Panasonic HVX cameras and other 24fps digital cameras so cheap that any would-be filmmaker could afford them. I was a member of several indie film communities and everybody thought that if they shot 24fps with a lens adapter to get depth of field they would finally be able to create a "real" film. Of course, a lot of really (censored) movies resulted. Heck, you need only peruse any of the render contests here on this forum to see how rare a truly well lit and well composed image is. 3D is hard ... or at least GOOD 3D is hard. And we haven't even gotten to all the other elements necessary to make a good comic. But there have been good feature films shot entirely on an iPhone and anybody who rejects 3D as a suitable medium for telling a sequential story is, in my opinion, an idiot. The good news is that never in history have artists and filmmakers had the ability to reach a potential audience as exists today. A good story well told will always be recognized. I follow many artists who are producing incredible 3D imagery on Deviant Art as well as those who employ traditional pencil, ink and brush techniques. 

There are also many people around the world traveling down parallel paths to the ones we are on. I found this blurb promoting a comic on Globalcomix: Traveller is a steampunk adventure story set at the turn of the 19th century. Made using cutting-edge 3D modelling combined with traditional hand inking,: https://globalcomix.com/c/traveller?lang=en It is a nice work and it is so sad that there are people who otherwise would have loved it who will dismiss it because the creators had the gall to admit to using 3D for the foundation. Even more "traditionalists" would reject it entirely if it had been fully rendered 3D. To me that makes no sense and I agree with @duckbomb that we shouldn't really give a rat's rear to those opinions. 

So thanks again to all of you who are keeping this thread alive and welcoming. Can't wait to see more work from everybody!

duckbomb

thedoctor said:

There are also many people around the world traveling down parallel paths to the ones we are on. I found this blurb promoting a comic on Globalcomix: Traveller is a steampunk adventure story set at the turn of the 19th century. Made using cutting-edge 3D modelling combined with traditional hand inking,: https://globalcomix.com/c/traveller?lang=en It is a nice work and it is so sad that there are people who otherwise would have loved it who will dismiss it because the creators had the gall to admit to using 3D for the foundation. Even more "traditionalists" would reject it entirely if it had been fully rendered 3D. To me that makes no sense and I agree with @duckbomb that we shouldn't really give a rat's rear to those opinions.

Hey that comic looks awesome!  Unfortunately, you're right, there will be people who dismiss it based on the medium, but there will always be those people and trying to win them over is a waste of effort.  It's funny, you'll hear things like "that artist is trying to trick us into making it look like it's hand drawn" or on the other side of the fence "I want it to look hand painted, not 3D at all", and in my opinion just embrace 3D for the benefits it gives you, and embrace the other techniques for their advantages.  Know what you are going after, put in the work, and put out a good comic with whichever tools you decide to use to get you to your goal.  It would be great if everybody just judged you by the merit of the integrety of your work, but this isn't the case, so all roads lead to the same place in the end.  Keep at it, dude, I like your style!

algovincian

thedoctor said:

There are also many people around the world traveling down parallel paths to the ones we are on. I found this blurb promoting a comic on Globalcomix: Traveller is a steampunk adventure story set at the turn of the 19th century. Made using cutting-edge 3D modelling combined with traditional hand inking,: https://globalcomix.com/c/traveller?lang=en It is a nice work and it is so sad that there are people who otherwise would have loved it who will dismiss it because the creators had the gall to admit to using 3D for the foundation. Even more "traditionalists" would reject it entirely if it had been fully rendered 3D. To me that makes no sense and I agree with @duckbomb that we shouldn't really give a rat's rear to those opinions. 

I bumped into Tasos briefly many years ago, and it's great to see that he was able to get to this point. I've read chapter 1 and the comic looks great - thanks for posting the link.

- Greg

mmitchell_houston

algovincian said:

thedoctor said:

There are also many people around the world traveling down parallel paths to the ones we are on. I found this blurb promoting a comic on Globalcomix: Traveller is a steampunk adventure story set at the turn of the 19th century. Made using cutting-edge 3D modelling combined with traditional hand inking,: https://globalcomix.com/c/traveller?lang=en It is a nice work and it is so sad that there are people who otherwise would have loved it who will dismiss it because the creators had the gall to admit to using 3D for the foundation. Even more "traditionalists" would reject it entirely if it had been fully rendered 3D. To me that makes no sense and I agree with @duckbomb that we shouldn't really give a rat's rear to those opinions. 

I bumped into Tasos briefly many years ago, and it's great to see that he was able to get to this point. I've read chapter 1 and the comic looks great - thanks for posting the link.

- Greg

Did you meet Tasos in person? I've not had that opportunity, though we chat online frequently through the Digital Art Live Facebook group and via messaging at other sites. We also participate in a different Webinars, so we do actually speak to each other often. I've been following the development of The Traveler for a long time, and I'm really looking forward to getting it in print when it's available.

mmitchell_houston

Hey all! Thanks for the great feedback! I'm on three deadlines this week, so it may be a few days before I can get back to write more detailed responses. Please know that I read everything written and appreciate the feedback and discussion that's going on here. I'm just a bit swamped right now!

algovincian

mmitchell_houston said:

algovincian said:

thedoctor said:

There are also many people around the world traveling down parallel paths to the ones we are on. I found this blurb promoting a comic on Globalcomix: Traveller is a steampunk adventure story set at the turn of the 19th century. Made using cutting-edge 3D modelling combined with traditional hand inking,: https://globalcomix.com/c/traveller?lang=en It is a nice work and it is so sad that there are people who otherwise would have loved it who will dismiss it because the creators had the gall to admit to using 3D for the foundation. Even more "traditionalists" would reject it entirely if it had been fully rendered 3D. To me that makes no sense and I agree with @duckbomb that we shouldn't really give a rat's rear to those opinions. 

I bumped into Tasos briefly many years ago, and it's great to see that he was able to get to this point. I've read chapter 1 and the comic looks great - thanks for posting the link.

- Greg

Did you meet Tasos in person? I've not had that opportunity, though we chat online frequently through the Digital Art Live Facebook group and via messaging at other sites. We also participate in a different Webinars, so we do actually speak to each other often. I've been following the development of The Traveler for a long time, and I'm really looking forward to getting it in print when it's available.

I don't really know him at all. He had reached out to me regarding possibly collaberating on an NPR project. I had a lot going on in my life at the time that was out of my control, so I couldn't make it happen (though I wish I could have). I remember being impressed with his work then, as I am now. It's always nice to see people who manage to see something through to completion.

- Greg

3Diva

algovincian said:

3Diva said:

Here's another in that render style. This one I added balloons to for some lettering practice as well as a glint effect on her sword.

That looks great, Diva! Lightening up the image in general really helps contrast the black lines, and I really like the thick black lines in general. The slightly colored balloon is a nice subtle touch, too. Keep 'em coming!

- Greg

Thank you, Greg! I REALLY like the thick and almost "inked looking lines" too! I was tickled pink when I was finally able to get that look. While I still really like some of the softer, more pastel looks I was able to get (like I posted earlier), the darker lines are something I've been REALLY wanting to figure out how to get. It might be my background in traditional comics, but lines that have line width variations was something I really wanted to be able to produce (without the many many hours of hand inking lol). Once I was able to achieve that look I was SO HAPPY! I'm like "YES! That's IT!". lol I still might do a project in the more pastel look at a later time, as I really like that look too. :)

3Diva

duckbomb said:

3Diva said:

After much testing, experimenting with different shaders, trying different extreme render settings, a huge variety of weird HDRIs both purchased and hand made, and lots and lots of tweaking, and refining, I'm pretty sure I've nailed down the render style that I want to go with for my comic. Here are some random scenes I rendered in the render style that I want to go with. Most of these scenes have nothing to do with my comic, but I wanted to just show a variety of scenes in the render style so that I can get a good handle on if it's going to be viable for a wide range of scenes that I'll need for my comic.

These are amazing!  SO clean, but the colors are so vibrant and consistant... very neat!  It feels like some super contemporary new-age cell shaded look!  In particular, my favorites are the one with the lady in the entryway of the house and the one in the soldier uniform.  Just awesome, I'd totally read a comic like that.  I also like how clear and legible your speech bubbles are in that example frame.  I think, with my stuff, I often go a little overboard on some of the messy lines and everything, and then the speech gets lost a bit, and I sometimes wonder if reading mine are fatiguing on the eyes.  Yours would be very easy to read even with a lot on the screen, because of how crisp the lines are.  I really like it!

Awww Thank you so much, duckbomb! You put a big smile on my face with the "new-age cell shaded look" comment! lol That's a really neat way to describe it and makes me happy to hear that it's a style that you'd enjoy reading in a comic! :D

As far as yours "fatiguing on the eyes" - what I've seen of yours so far it doesn't look like that should be a concern. I think yours was perfectly legible and not at all eye-straining - at least from what I've seen so far. I'd really love to read more of your comic but since you gave a "warning" about it, it sounds like maybe something I shouldn't read? lol Is it really bad? :P

3Diva

thedoctor said:

mmitchell_houston said:

[edited] ...

But, this brings us to the two quotes above, and I have to say that, for the most part, they are right. Not just right, but "100% right." But the traditionalists are almost completely wrong as to WHY. 

3D is not the culprit as to why the finished products seem dull and lifeless. The problem is that most 3D comics are not good comics.

It has nothing to do with the use of 3D tools, it's just that too many 3D artists don't actually read comics on a regular basis, or if they do, they're not reading them to learn anything. @Diva, you kept saying in that example above that it was an EXTREME example. You're partly right, but I also must counter and say, "No, it's not really extreme. It's a standard action page by Jack Kirby." Kirby, of course, is one of the masters of the medium who instrumental in inventing most of the modern tropes of comics as know them today. Do you want to frame a page of dialogue the way it was set up in that page? I hope not! But as far as action goes? Yeah, this is a great page. (If you want to see great dialogue pages, go look up Strangers in Paradise by Terry Moore, Bone by Jeff Smith or look at Tomb of Dracula by Marve Wolfman and Gene Colon.)

Anyway, back to my point. Most of the 3D comics I've seen are not well done in terms of storytelling. The artists don't have a grasp of the basics as to when to include an establishing shot, when to allow a scene to play out slowly over a few panels, when to use close-ups and how to frame a scene with dialogue. In short, even if the artists are good at setting up their scenes and getting good lighting (not a lot are, btw, I see LOTS of 3D scenes that are not properly lit to show faces or reactions, or that don't know when to use a silhouette to simplify the composition, like Kirby did in that last panel of the page above). I've seen too many 3D comics that don't tell stories well. The next time you look at a page done in 3D, look at it and ask yourself, if a pro artist of the top caliber were to redraw that page, would it still be a good comics page? Unfortunately, the answer is almost always "no."

So, the solution to getting past the bias of the traditional artists? MAKE GREAT COMICS WITH 3D!

Write a good strip, block out your scenes, arrange your panels well, have good lettering, and above all else, do something in 3D that you cannot do better with hand-drawn comics. ...

..@3Diva, I gotta say that you blow me away again with your latest images. I look forward to learning more from you as to your techniques and what you've learned through your experimentation.

Thank you, thedoctor. The techniques and experiments ...that's a BIG can of worms that I'm not sure I should be dumping all over the place here. lol​ One of these days I'll have to start my own thread and get into all that there. lol Let's just say the road to being able to get the NPR styles I can has been long and rocky and about a year and a half of development. @algovincian has been along with me on the journey. He beta tested the first "incarnation" of it and has been with me through the drama of finding out that there where some changes made to Daz Studio in the last major update that killed any chances of it becoming a product. I was pretty heartbroken, since I had (at that time) spent about a year developing the NPR product for Daz Studio Iray and had intended it as a product. I was very much looking forward to seeing what the community would do with it. And knowing now that it's only something that *I* can use (because I still have a specific older version of Daz Studio installed that the shaders work in) is pretty saddening. It's a pretty long story, but that's the "gist" of it anyway. 

I'd decided that since I had spent so much time developing it I wouldn't let that time be "for nothing" - so that's what started me on my journey to do what I have been wanting to do for years: make my own comic. :)

3Diva

FirstBastion said:

s

3Diva said:

Here's another in that render style. This one I added balloons to for some lettering practice as well as a glint effect on her sword.

 

The shading step detail on her pant legs is a digital colorist dream. If in doubt always go for a brighter image. Things always look darker once printed.

hahah Thank you, FirstBastion! And yeah as someone who often worked as a "digital colorist" I can back up your statement. lol :D Those "cuts" are something I would have to work hard to get by hand - being able to get that look in my renders has made me incredibly happy! 

And you're right about shooting for "brighter" - it's something I'm going to try to keep in mind as I really like when the lines "pop" and the lighter colors help to get that look.

duckbomb

3Diva said:

As far as yours "fatiguing on the eyes" - what I've seen of yours so far it doesn't look like that should be a concern. I think yours was perfectly legible and not at all eye-straining - at least from what I've seen so far. I'd really love to read more of your comic but since you gave a "warning" about it, it sounds like maybe something I shouldn't read? lol Is it really bad? :P

Oh that's good to hear... Some of the feedback I've received has been that all of the compounded "texture" and added "mess" can be a bit much, and I can see that, so I've been trying to be aware of it.  Maybe that's why it stands out so much how clear and legible yours is!

AH, my "warning"...  NO, it isn't that bad.  It's bad in the way horror movies can be bad.  I'm no fan of horror movies, I feel they glorify violence and killing and they make me uncomfortable, but it's TOTALLY COOL with me that other people enjoy them.  My comics are like that... the're suspensful and sarcastic and if you aren't into the kinds of things I'm into then you may find them offputting or suggestive, and I find that it's best to head it off at the pass and give people a reason not too look so that those that do have an idea of what they are getting into.  I have no need for full-on anatomical elements, and people are almost always clothed in my comics, if that gives you an indication.  My wife and I enjoy an alternative lifestyle, however, and I use comcis and stories as a way to encourage and reach others who struggled with things I have when I was "finding myself".  YEP, clear as mud, I've done my job LOL.

I do hope this isn't "Too much information", but considering what DAZ could be used for, It made me feel better to stress that it's nothing gross, illegal, or violent... it's just not everybody's taste.  I'll leave it be at that, and not advertise my warning too much, now that I've started posting :)

That being said, I dont' know what's allowed and what might offend around here, so my disclaimer was just me waiving the flag that "I'm not a bad person and don't hate me" even if you think my comic pages are going in a dark direction.  It's not what you think ;)  I'll keep posting pages I think are OK to post.

Here's the first Choose Your Own Adventure poll page I posted... my Patreons went with "Ring the Doorbell" HAHA

 

I'm very intentional, however, to ensure that I don't post anything so as to be a stumbling block for anybody

FirstBastion

Great way to engage your audience,  and find out they'd make a perfectly reasonable choice.

FirstBastion

algovincian said:

thedoctor said:

short sci-fi film I wrote and co-produced called "O2" HERE.

That was excellent, @thedoctor! Looking forward to the comics you produce and stories you tell. Cheers!

- Greg

Agreed, a well written "calling card" type short film with a smart twist. Good experience. It will serve you well,  the art might get someone interested at looking at a book,  but it's story that will keep them reading. 

3Diva

duckbomb said:

3Diva said:

As far as yours "fatiguing on the eyes" - what I've seen of yours so far it doesn't look like that should be a concern. I think yours was perfectly legible and not at all eye-straining - at least from what I've seen so far. I'd really love to read more of your comic but since you gave a "warning" about it, it sounds like maybe something I shouldn't read? lol Is it really bad? :P

Oh that's good to hear... Some of the feedback I've received has been that all of the compounded "texture" and added "mess" can be a bit much, and I can see that, so I've been trying to be aware of it.  Maybe that's why it stands out so much how clear and legible yours is!

AH, my "warning"...  NO, it isn't that bad.  It's bad in the way horror movies can be bad.  I'm no fan of horror movies, I feel they glorify violence and killing and they make me uncomfortable, but it's TOTALLY COOL with me that other people enjoy them.  My comics are like that... the're suspensful and sarcastic and if you aren't into the kinds of things I'm into then you may find them offputting or suggestive, and I find that it's best to head it off at the pass and give people a reason not too look so that those that do have an idea of what they are getting into.  I have no need for full-on anatomical elements, and people are almost always clothed in my comics, if that gives you an indication.  My wife and I enjoy an alternative lifestyle, however, and I use comcis and stories as a way to encourage and reach others who struggled with things I have when I was "finding myself".  YEP, clear as mud, I've done my job LOL.

I do hope this isn't "Too much information", but considering what DAZ could be used for, It made me feel better to stress that it's nothing gross, illegal, or violent... it's just not everybody's taste.  I'll leave it be at that, and not advertise my warning too much, now that I've started posting :)

That being said, I dont' know what's allowed and what might offend around here, so my disclaimer was just me waiving the flag that "I'm not a bad person and don't hate me" even if you think my comic pages are going in a dark direction.  It's not what you think ;)  I'll keep posting pages I think are OK to post.

Here's the first Choose Your Own Adventure poll page I posted... my Patreons went with "Ring the Doorbell" HAHA

 

I'm very intentional, however, to ensure that I don't post anything so as to be a stumbling block for anybody

"Clear as mud, I've done my job" ROFL That made me tear up laughing. :D Of course reading it when I'm half asleep and before my coffee probably helped it hit my funny button so hard. lol

That Choose Your Own Adventure poll page is really cool! You might want to keep an eye on the spacing of that font though. Otherwise, you might get some "Don't Dead Open Inside" mishaps. For instance, this:

I'm not sure if "Just Kick" and "F**king Something" were intended to be options. :P lol 

 

3Diva

duckbomb said:

3Diva said:

As far as yours "fatiguing on the eyes" - what I've seen of yours so far it doesn't look like that should be a concern. I think yours was perfectly legible and not at all eye-straining - at least from what I've seen so far. I'd really love to read more of your comic but since you gave a "warning" about it, it sounds like maybe something I shouldn't read? lol Is it really bad? :P

Oh that's good to hear... Some of the feedback I've received has been that all of the compounded "texture" and added "mess" can be a bit much, and I can see that, so I've been trying to be aware of it.  Maybe that's why it stands out so much how clear and legible yours is!

AH, my "warning"...  NO, it isn't that bad.  It's bad in the way horror movies can be bad.  I'm no fan of horror movies, I feel they glorify violence and killing and they make me uncomfortable, but it's TOTALLY COOL with me that other people enjoy them.  My comics are like that... the're suspensful and sarcastic and if you aren't into the kinds of things I'm into then you may find them offputting or suggestive, and I find that it's best to head it off at the pass and give people a reason not too look so that those that do have an idea of what they are getting into.  I have no need for full-on anatomical elements, and people are almost always clothed in my comics, if that gives you an indication.  My wife and I enjoy an alternative lifestyle, however, and I use comcis and stories as a way to encourage and reach others who struggled with things I have when I was "finding myself".  YEP, clear as mud, I've done my job LOL.

I do hope this isn't "Too much information", but considering what DAZ could be used for, It made me feel better to stress that it's nothing gross, illegal, or violent... it's just not everybody's taste.  I'll leave it be at that, and not advertise my warning too much, now that I've started posting :)

That being said, I dont' know what's allowed and what might offend around here, so my disclaimer was just me waiving the flag that "I'm not a bad person and don't hate me" even if you think my comic pages are going in a dark direction.  It's not what you think ;)  I'll keep posting pages I think are OK to post.

Here's the first Choose Your Own Adventure poll page I posted... my Patreons went with "Ring the Doorbell" HAHA

 

I'm very intentional, however, to ensure that I don't post anything so as to be a stumbling block for anybody

 

And no, I don't think that the info you gave was "too much information" at all. :) I'm still a bit confused actually, but that's a state I'm often familiar with anyway. hahah As the great Cyndi Lauper said, "Confusion is nothing new". lol

In any case, I really like the art style you've chosen and have enjoyed the images you've chosen to share with us. I hope you keep sharing your work with us (if and when it's ok to do so lol).

3Diva

thedoctor said:

mmitchell_houston said:

[edited] ...

But, this brings us to the two quotes above, and I have to say that, for the most part, they are right. Not just right, but "100% right." But the traditionalists are almost completely wrong as to WHY. 

3D is not the culprit as to why the finished products seem dull and lifeless. The problem is that most 3D comics are not good comics.

It has nothing to do with the use of 3D tools, it's just that too many 3D artists don't actually read comics on a regular basis, or if they do, they're not reading them to learn anything. @Diva, you kept saying in that example above that it was an EXTREME example. You're partly right, but I also must counter and say, "No, it's not really extreme. It's a standard action page by Jack Kirby." Kirby, of course, is one of the masters of the medium who instrumental in inventing most of the modern tropes of comics as know them today. Do you want to frame a page of dialogue the way it was set up in that page? I hope not! But as far as action goes? Yeah, this is a great page. (If you want to see great dialogue pages, go look up Strangers in Paradise by Terry Moore, Bone by Jeff Smith or look at Tomb of Dracula by Marve Wolfman and Gene Colon.)

Anyway, back to my point. Most of the 3D comics I've seen are not well done in terms of storytelling. The artists don't have a grasp of the basics as to when to include an establishing shot, when to allow a scene to play out slowly over a few panels, when to use close-ups and how to frame a scene with dialogue. In short, even if the artists are good at setting up their scenes and getting good lighting (not a lot are, btw, I see LOTS of 3D scenes that are not properly lit to show faces or reactions, or that don't know when to use a silhouette to simplify the composition, like Kirby did in that last panel of the page above). I've seen too many 3D comics that don't tell stories well. The next time you look at a page done in 3D, look at it and ask yourself, if a pro artist of the top caliber were to redraw that page, would it still be a good comics page? Unfortunately, the answer is almost always "no."

So, the solution to getting past the bias of the traditional artists? MAKE GREAT COMICS WITH 3D!

Write a good strip, block out your scenes, arrange your panels well, have good lettering, and above all else, do something in 3D that you cannot do better with hand-drawn comics. ...

If you have six minutes to spare, I'd be honored if you would watch the short sci-fi film I wrote and co-produced called "O2" HERE. It is SO damn hard to produce a film of any genre, let alone a sci-fi story that relies upon effects and sets. We had no budget but I was not willing to give up and I was able to get the set, wardrobe and actors gratis while using a totally volunteer crew. It isn't great art, but I'm proud of what we accomplished and I feel it tells a story well within the limitations of time and resources. I would very much like to discuss storytelling and how to harness sequential imagery to engage and keep an audience. I know it is much different than film, but there certainly are areas of overlap and I'm hoping my experience will help me in this new medium.

I am committed to doing the very best I can to tell a story through 3D and I'm well aware I'll need to bust my rear, learn and listen to those of you who have been slogging in the trenches. My only goal is to create a work that I feel satisfied with and I'm going to hold myself to high standards to achieve the finished product. To get there I'm going to shamelessly pick your brains, post work in progress and ask a lot of dumb questions. I hope you forgive me for any faux pas I commit or for coming across as though I have any ego. I'm happy to accept criticism no matter how harsh. Honesty is everything to me. 

In the end I'm not going to work for Marvel and I'm not going to measure my success by anything other than my own standards. Above all, I care about sincerity and honesty and I do so much value any assistance, advice, encouragement or darts you all care to send this way.

 

Wow... O2 was very good! Excellent short film! It brought a tear to my eye, even!

It's a wonderfully written story and the acting was pretty good too. The guy who played Trevor, Todd Lowe, was REALLY good, imo. What a blessing to have him on the project - he really brought a lot to the role, imo. It's hard to do with such little screen time, but he really made you care about his character in a very short time. The set, lighting, and cinematography all look great too. It looks like everyone involved did a great job! VERY COOL!

You definitely have a talent for visual storytelling - the short film was excellent. I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with comics. And, as you pointed out, there is some overlap there in these two visual storytelling mediums and I think your experience in one will lend itself quite well in the creation of the other. :) I'm looking forward to seeing more from you!

thedoctor

3Diva said:

thedoctor said:

mmitchell_houston said:

[edited] ...

But, this brings us to the two quotes above, and I have to say that, for the most part, they are right. Not just right, but "100% right." But the traditionalists are almost completely wrong as to WHY. 

3D is not the culprit as to why the finished products seem dull and lifeless. The problem is that most 3D comics are not good comics.

It has nothing to do with the use of 3D tools, it's just that too many 3D artists don't actually read comics on a regular basis, or if they do, they're not reading them to learn anything. @Diva, you kept saying in that example above that it was an EXTREME example. You're partly right, but I also must counter and say, "No, it's not really extreme. It's a standard action page by Jack Kirby." Kirby, of course, is one of the masters of the medium who instrumental in inventing most of the modern tropes of comics as know them today. Do you want to frame a page of dialogue the way it was set up in that page? I hope not! But as far as action goes? Yeah, this is a great page. (If you want to see great dialogue pages, go look up Strangers in Paradise by Terry Moore, Bone by Jeff Smith or look at Tomb of Dracula by Marve Wolfman and Gene Colon.)

Anyway, back to my point. Most of the 3D comics I've seen are not well done in terms of storytelling. The artists don't have a grasp of the basics as to when to include an establishing shot, when to allow a scene to play out slowly over a few panels, when to use close-ups and how to frame a scene with dialogue. In short, even if the artists are good at setting up their scenes and getting good lighting (not a lot are, btw, I see LOTS of 3D scenes that are not properly lit to show faces or reactions, or that don't know when to use a silhouette to simplify the composition, like Kirby did in that last panel of the page above). I've seen too many 3D comics that don't tell stories well. The next time you look at a page done in 3D, look at it and ask yourself, if a pro artist of the top caliber were to redraw that page, would it still be a good comics page? Unfortunately, the answer is almost always "no."

So, the solution to getting past the bias of the traditional artists? MAKE GREAT COMICS WITH 3D!

Write a good strip, block out your scenes, arrange your panels well, have good lettering, and above all else, do something in 3D that you cannot do better with hand-drawn comics. ...

If you have six minutes to spare, I'd be honored if you would watch the short sci-fi film I wrote and co-produced called "O2" HERE. It is SO damn hard to produce a film of any genre, let alone a sci-fi story that relies upon effects and sets. We had no budget but I was not willing to give up and I was able to get the set, wardrobe and actors gratis while using a totally volunteer crew. It isn't great art, but I'm proud of what we accomplished and I feel it tells a story well within the limitations of time and resources. I would very much like to discuss storytelling and how to harness sequential imagery to engage and keep an audience. I know it is much different than film, but there certainly are areas of overlap and I'm hoping my experience will help me in this new medium.

I am committed to doing the very best I can to tell a story through 3D and I'm well aware I'll need to bust my rear, learn and listen to those of you who have been slogging in the trenches. My only goal is to create a work that I feel satisfied with and I'm going to hold myself to high standards to achieve the finished product. To get there I'm going to shamelessly pick your brains, post work in progress and ask a lot of dumb questions. I hope you forgive me for any faux pas I commit or for coming across as though I have any ego. I'm happy to accept criticism no matter how harsh. Honesty is everything to me. 

In the end I'm not going to work for Marvel and I'm not going to measure my success by anything other than my own standards. Above all, I care about sincerity and honesty and I do so much value any assistance, advice, encouragement or darts you all care to send this way.

 

Wow... O2 was very good! Excellent short film! It brought a tear to my eye, even!

It's a wonderfully written story and the acting was pretty good too. The guy who played Trevor, Todd Lowe, was REALLY good, imo. What a blessing to have him on the project - he really brought a lot to the role, imo. It's hard to do with such little screen time, but he really made you care about his character in a very short time. The set, lighting, and cinematography all look great too. It looks like everyone involved did a great job! VERY COOL!

You definitely have a talent for visual storytelling - the short film was excellent. I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with comics. And, as you pointed out, there is some overlap there in these two visual storytelling mediums and I think your experience in one will lend itself quite well in the creation of the other. :) I'm looking forward to seeing more from you!

Thank you SO much @3Diva. We were so very fortunate to get these actors. Todd Lowe played Terry Bellefleur on HBO's TRUE BLOOD and was Zack on Gilmore GIrls. Tim Abell played Benny Riddle on Jerry Bruckheimer's SOLDIER OF FORTUNE and a number of other film and television roles and Anna Alexander played Sienna Stone on CSI MIAMI and several other telvision roles. In the world of Indie films in Hollywood we learned that it is all about doing favors and all about IMDb credits. My partners and I worked countless hours on other people's sets for nothing other than experience and the chance to bank a future favor. Thus, when we were ready to shoot the film I schmoozed the owners of Laurel Canyon Stages where the spaceship set is and offered to help them with some VFX and editing in exchange for use of the set for two days on a weekend it wasn't booked. The set was used in an episode of FIREFLY and we used stills from that episode to give us credibility when we approached others and called in favors. A friend knew Levie Isaacks, who was the cinematorapher on Malcolm in the MIddle and also knew he was interested in trying some stuff out shooting digital with the RED Cinema camera so we talked him into coming on board as we had borrowed a friend's RED with a set of Russian cinema lenses. For wardrobe and props I knew I got a tip that Dragon Dronet, who had done a bunch of Star Trek work might be willing to help out. We didn't have a budget so I came up with the idea of having a fedex overnight delivery to him. When he opened it I had stapled a $100 bill to the letter with a copy of the script and wrote a note saying I didn't expect to take his time for free and the $100 was his to read the script. I was honest and said we couldn't pay anything but said I was confident in the project and that there was a good chance he would be willing to help us in some way since we knew he had a soft spot for indie filmmakers. It really touched him and he had us come in where he loaded us up with our spacesuit props and a whole bunch of sci-fi set pieces to use for free. At that point we felt we had enough credibility to approach actors because in Hollywood WORKING IS EVERYTHING. If an actor isn't committed to another project at the moment and believes a short film will be shot well with an interesting part they will often agree to give you a day or two for the IMDb credit and the production stills that they will use to prove they are relevant, working and kicking ass. My co-writer knew Todd from a theater project he had done years ago and talked him into helping and we knew Tim Abell's agent and schmoozed him into getting Tim to read the script. So we had a blast bringing the script to life and working with a very passionate crew of volunteers doing us return favors for all the work we had done on their sets over the previous years. We were able to win some festival awards with the final short and used it as a calling card (just as @duckbomb mused) to shoot a couple web pilot episodes for Warner Brothers including one directed by Carl Weathers. 

SO the moral of my story is that two things are critical: 1) PERSISTENCE, and, 2) INSISTING ON MAKING YOURSELF PRODUCE THE HIGHEST QUALITY WORK YOU CAN POSSIBLY CREATE. You have to be able to see when your work isn't meeting your own standards and you can't cut corners. We wanted to shoot a sci-fi short that had high production values and we were able to do it with no money and a whole bunch of persistence. Thanks for letting me bore you with this story. I am going to pick your brain and study your work (and everyone else here) until I can feel comfortable that I can create visuals that work and tell the story I have in my head. In the end all that matters to me is that I reach the bar I've set for myself and having your kind help, critiques and encouragement means everything to me. Thank you and everyone else here. ONWARD.

3Diva

thedoctor said:

3Diva said:

thedoctor said:

mmitchell_houston said:

[edited] ...

But, this brings us to the two quotes above, and I have to say that, for the most part, they are right. Not just right, but "100% right." But the traditionalists are almost completely wrong as to WHY. 

3D is not the culprit as to why the finished products seem dull and lifeless. The problem is that most 3D comics are not good comics.

It has nothing to do with the use of 3D tools, it's just that too many 3D artists don't actually read comics on a regular basis, or if they do, they're not reading them to learn anything. @Diva, you kept saying in that example above that it was an EXTREME example. You're partly right, but I also must counter and say, "No, it's not really extreme. It's a standard action page by Jack Kirby." Kirby, of course, is one of the masters of the medium who instrumental in inventing most of the modern tropes of comics as know them today. Do you want to frame a page of dialogue the way it was set up in that page? I hope not! But as far as action goes? Yeah, this is a great page. (If you want to see great dialogue pages, go look up Strangers in Paradise by Terry Moore, Bone by Jeff Smith or look at Tomb of Dracula by Marve Wolfman and Gene Colon.)

Anyway, back to my point. Most of the 3D comics I've seen are not well done in terms of storytelling. The artists don't have a grasp of the basics as to when to include an establishing shot, when to allow a scene to play out slowly over a few panels, when to use close-ups and how to frame a scene with dialogue. In short, even if the artists are good at setting up their scenes and getting good lighting (not a lot are, btw, I see LOTS of 3D scenes that are not properly lit to show faces or reactions, or that don't know when to use a silhouette to simplify the composition, like Kirby did in that last panel of the page above). I've seen too many 3D comics that don't tell stories well. The next time you look at a page done in 3D, look at it and ask yourself, if a pro artist of the top caliber were to redraw that page, would it still be a good comics page? Unfortunately, the answer is almost always "no."

So, the solution to getting past the bias of the traditional artists? MAKE GREAT COMICS WITH 3D!

Write a good strip, block out your scenes, arrange your panels well, have good lettering, and above all else, do something in 3D that you cannot do better with hand-drawn comics. ...

If you have six minutes to spare, I'd be honored if you would watch the short sci-fi film I wrote and co-produced called "O2" HERE. It is SO damn hard to produce a film of any genre, let alone a sci-fi story that relies upon effects and sets. We had no budget but I was not willing to give up and I was able to get the set, wardrobe and actors gratis while using a totally volunteer crew. It isn't great art, but I'm proud of what we accomplished and I feel it tells a story well within the limitations of time and resources. I would very much like to discuss storytelling and how to harness sequential imagery to engage and keep an audience. I know it is much different than film, but there certainly are areas of overlap and I'm hoping my experience will help me in this new medium.

I am committed to doing the very best I can to tell a story through 3D and I'm well aware I'll need to bust my rear, learn and listen to those of you who have been slogging in the trenches. My only goal is to create a work that I feel satisfied with and I'm going to hold myself to high standards to achieve the finished product. To get there I'm going to shamelessly pick your brains, post work in progress and ask a lot of dumb questions. I hope you forgive me for any faux pas I commit or for coming across as though I have any ego. I'm happy to accept criticism no matter how harsh. Honesty is everything to me. 

In the end I'm not going to work for Marvel and I'm not going to measure my success by anything other than my own standards. Above all, I care about sincerity and honesty and I do so much value any assistance, advice, encouragement or darts you all care to send this way.

 

Wow... O2 was very good! Excellent short film! It brought a tear to my eye, even!

It's a wonderfully written story and the acting was pretty good too. The guy who played Trevor, Todd Lowe, was REALLY good, imo. What a blessing to have him on the project - he really brought a lot to the role, imo. It's hard to do with such little screen time, but he really made you care about his character in a very short time. The set, lighting, and cinematography all look great too. It looks like everyone involved did a great job! VERY COOL!

You definitely have a talent for visual storytelling - the short film was excellent. I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with comics. And, as you pointed out, there is some overlap there in these two visual storytelling mediums and I think your experience in one will lend itself quite well in the creation of the other. :) I'm looking forward to seeing more from you!

Thank you SO much @3Diva. We were so very fortunate to get these actors. Todd Lowe played Terry Bellefleur on HBO's TRUE BLOOD and was Zack on Gilmore GIrls. Tim Abell played Benny Riddle on Jerry Bruckheimer's SOLDIER OF FORTUNE and a number of other film and television roles and Anna Alexander played Sienna Stone on CSI MIAMI and several other telvision roles. In the world of Indie films in Hollywood we learned that it is all about doing favors and all about IMDb credits. My partners and I worked countless hours on other people's sets for nothing other than experience and the chance to bank a future favor. Thus, when we were ready to shoot the film I schmoozed the owners of Laurel Canyon Stages where the spaceship set is and offered to help them with some VFX and editing in exchange for use of the set for two days on a weekend it wasn't booked. The set was used in an episode of FIREFLY and we used stills from that episode to give us credibility when we approached others and called in favors. A friend knew Levie Isaacks, who was the cinematorapher on Malcolm in the MIddle and also knew he was interested in trying some stuff out shooting digital with the RED Cinema camera so we talked him into coming on board as we had borrowed a friend's RED with a set of Russian cinema lenses. For wardrobe and props I knew I got a tip that Dragon Dronet, who had done a bunch of Star Trek work might be willing to help out. We didn't have a budget so I came up with the idea of having a fedex overnight delivery to him. When he opened it I had stapled a $100 bill to the letter with a copy of the script and wrote a note saying I didn't expect to take his time for free and the $100 was his to read the script. I was honest and said we couldn't pay anything but said I was confident in the project and that there was a good chance he would be willing to help us in some way since we knew he had a soft spot for indie filmmakers. It really touched him and he had us come in where he loaded us up with our spacesuit props and a whole bunch of sci-fi set pieces to use for free. At that point we felt we had enough credibility to approach actors because in Hollywood WORKING IS EVERYTHING. If an actor isn't committed to another project at the moment and believes a short film will be shot well with an interesting part they will often agree to give you a day or two for the IMDb credit and the production stills that they will use to prove they are relevant, working and kicking ass. My co-writer knew Todd from a theater project he had done years ago and talked him into helping and we knew Tim Abell's agent and schmoozed him into getting Tim to read the script. So we had a blast bringing the script to life and working with a very passionate crew of volunteers doing us return favors for all the work we had done on their sets over the previous years. We were able to win some festival awards with the final short and used it as a calling card (just as @duckbomb mused) to shoot a couple web pilot episodes for Warner Brothers including one directed by Carl Weathers. 

SO the moral of my story is that two things are critical: 1) PERSISTENCE, and, 2) INSISTING ON MAKING YOURSELF PRODUCE THE HIGHEST QUALITY WORK YOU CAN POSSIBLY CREATE. You have to be able to see when your work isn't meeting your own standards and you can't cut corners. We wanted to shoot a sci-fi short that had high production values and we were able to do it with no money and a whole bunch of persistence. Thanks for letting me bore you with this story. I am going to pick your brain and study your work (and everyone else here) until I can feel comfortable that I can create visuals that work and tell the story I have in my head. In the end all that matters to me is that I reach the bar I've set for myself and having your kind help, critiques and encouragement means everything to me. Thank you and everyone else here. ONWARD.

Hahah It's awesome how all those elements needed to bring that film to life were brought together. And MAN you must have had to really hustle and work your arse off to get all those pieces of the puzzle together to make that happen! I'm in awe of your perseverance and drive! :D

I really like the "moral of the story" too. That's great advice! :D

 

 

duckbomb

3Diva said:

That Choose Your Own Adventure poll page is really cool! You might want to keep an eye on the spacing of that font though. Otherwise, you might get some "Don't Dead Open Inside" mishaps. For instance, this:

AH!  Shoot.. good call!  I've run into that with that font before, and I completely forgot this time...  Nice catch!  I had to laugh pretty hard, because I meant to censor that one, but it slipped past, and then I thought "ah, it's a small little thing, noboby will even notice I cussed" and then you BLEW THE THING UP AND POSTED IT HERE!  HAHA!  I honestly had a chuckle at that when I saw it :).  I'm unsure of the forum rules, but I have to imagine that I should have fuzzed out that word... I will next time.

 

3Diva

duckbomb said:

3Diva said:

That Choose Your Own Adventure poll page is really cool! You might want to keep an eye on the spacing of that font though. Otherwise, you might get some "Don't Dead Open Inside" mishaps. For instance, this:

AH!  Shoot.. good call!  I've run into that with that font before, and I completely forgot this time...  Nice catch!  I had to laugh pretty hard, because I meant to censor that one, but it slipped past, and then I thought "ah, it's a small little thing, noboby will even notice I cussed" and then you BLEW THE THING UP AND POSTED IT HERE!  HAHA!  I honestly had a chuckle at that when I saw it :).  I'm unsure of the forum rules, but I have to imagine that I should have fuzzed out that word... I will next time.

 

OOPS! You're right! I censored my text but it totally didn't occur to me to censor the screen capture image too. Fixed - I censored it with a smiley face. lol

FirstBastion

Working on the ever elusive comic art style. 

3Diva

FirstBastion said:

Working on the ever elusive comic art style. 

Oh nice! It's almost like a painted look. I dig it! Maybe try layering it with the original render and see what that looks like? :)

mmitchell_houston

Hey everyone! I just posted an image over in the NPR thread and would love to get some feedback on it: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/5918281#Comment_5918281

It's the pic of the guy and gal in a convertable. 

duckbomb

FirstBastion said:

Working on the ever elusive comic art style. 

This is AWESOME!  i love how simplistic the color is, and how painterly is looks.  I'd have a really hard time not taking into PS and adding my own hand-drawn linework around the edges,  It's just begging for it to me.  I really like it, it's a style I could totally get behind!

IndieComicGuy

thedoctor said:

@mmitchell_houston: I appreciate so much the info regarding forum image size. I wondered about that and I shall go back and edit my images later today to comply. 

The workflow is to export models as OBJ files from DAZ. TwinMotion imports OBJ files with textures but there is no ability to pose figures. You CAN move the figures and objects however, which is nice to be able to refine a scene. Moreover, it has a good User Library function that makes it easy to bring in assets and drag and drop them in your TwinMotion scene. If you intend to move objects around it is best to place them at 0,0,0 in DAZ Studio so they import with pivot point centered in TwinMotion.

The line-art filters are very rudimentary and I am hoping Epic will allow some adjustment of line thickness at least in a future update. Right now it seems the LIGHT setting is too thin and the REGULAR setting too thick. However, by adjusting Lighting and Camera settings you can get some control. One issue you will note is that DAZ figure eyes need to be adjusted. When you import a figure the EYE MOISTURE becomes a mirror surface and the CORNEA opaque. Moreover you need to separately apply the eyelash opacity to make eyelashes appear realistic. Not a big deal once you get the hang of it and after you've adjusted a figure's materials the program remembers those material settings the next time you import the figure with a new pose.

Obviously, the program was designed for architectural visualization so it isn't an ideal environment. However, real-time rendering and its other amazing tools make it a superb addition to a comic artist's arsenal.

Hi Doc! The work looks great! Thanks for sharing!

When you export from Daz to Obj files for importing in Twinmotion, do you have to do any size adjustments during the export? I tried the workflow and my Stonemason environment ended up tiny and sideways in Twinmotion. Have you encountered this problem, and do you have any suggestions for fixing it? Thanks in advance for your time and consideration! I appreciate it, and keep up the great work!

thedoctor

rrutorres said:

thedoctor said:

@mmitchell_houston: I appreciate so much the info regarding forum image size. I wondered about that and I shall go back and edit my images later today to comply. 

The workflow is to export models as OBJ files from DAZ. TwinMotion imports OBJ files with textures but there is no ability to pose figures. You CAN move the figures and objects however, which is nice to be able to refine a scene. Moreover, it has a good User Library function that makes it easy to bring in assets and drag and drop them in your TwinMotion scene. If you intend to move objects around it is best to place them at 0,0,0 in DAZ Studio so they import with pivot point centered in TwinMotion.

The line-art filters are very rudimentary and I am hoping Epic will allow some adjustment of line thickness at least in a future update. Right now it seems the LIGHT setting is too thin and the REGULAR setting too thick. However, by adjusting Lighting and Camera settings you can get some control. One issue you will note is that DAZ figure eyes need to be adjusted. When you import a figure the EYE MOISTURE becomes a mirror surface and the CORNEA opaque. Moreover you need to separately apply the eyelash opacity to make eyelashes appear realistic. Not a big deal once you get the hang of it and after you've adjusted a figure's materials the program remembers those material settings the next time you import the figure with a new pose.

Obviously, the program was designed for architectural visualization so it isn't an ideal environment. However, real-time rendering and its other amazing tools make it a superb addition to a comic artist's arsenal.

Hi Doc! The work looks great! Thanks for sharing!

When you export from Daz to Obj files for importing in Twinmotion, do you have to do any size adjustments during the export? I tried the workflow and my Stonemason environment ended up tiny and sideways in Twinmotion. Have you encountered this problem, and do you have any suggestions for fixing it? Thanks in advance for your time and consideration! I appreciate it, and keep up the great work!

@rrutorres: When you export from DAZ Studio you need to make sure your OBJ export settings are exporting at 100% scale. Some of the presets change that scale and the software remembers whatever the last setting was so that once you set it you can forget it. The easiest way to do this is to start with a blank TwinMotion scene and then bring in one of it's character objects as a reference. Then load a simple Daz figure and export it and when you import it should match the scale of the Twinmotion figure. If it doesn't you can go back and change your Daz Studio scale setting accordingly until you get it right. You CAN adjust scale in Twinmotion for importing but it won't remember that setting and is a pain to have to adjust every time. You'll also find sometimes an imported model comes in rotated improperty and I find it easiest to just rotate it 90 degrees in Twinmotion rather than going back and changing the axis setting. If you continue to have difficulty please let me know and I can post some screenshots showing you my settings in both programs.

IndieComicGuy

Hi Doc,

This is all very helpful, thanks. I have familiarity with Daz Studio, but have only dipped my toes in Twinmotion based on your recommendation. The tutorials on Youtube are a little hit or miss for me. Could you let me know how to 1) export the obj file from Daz Studio with textures? and 2) rotate an axis in Twinmotion? That would be a helpful start for me. Thanks again for your time and consideration! I am deeply appreciative!

thedoctor

rrutorres said:

Hi Doc,

This is all very helpful, thanks. I have familiarity with Daz Studio, but have only dipped my toes in Twinmotion based on your recommendation. The tutorials on Youtube are a little hit or miss for me. Could you let me know how to 1) export the obj file from Daz Studio with textures? and 2) rotate an axis in Twinmotion? That would be a helpful start for me. Thanks again for your time and consideration! I am deeply appreciative!

I whipped up a quick tutorial on importing objects and figures. If any of the steps aren't clear just holler and I'll try to explain better.

 

IndieComicGuy

You're the best. I appreciate you. Thanks so much!