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I'm just happy he's learning to develop renders at the same time. He does love reading them too. Beside, doing anything creative to counterbalance the countless hours playing videogames is a worthwhile pursuit. And a useful set of skills for him going forward.
There's a discussion in "Understanding Comics" that explains the reason. It has to do with the universality of the more simplified version of art. The reader identifies with the less exact and more abstract. It's in the first chapter which introduce many concepts that lay the groundwork for the rest of the book analysis of the medium.
My copy is set to arrive today. I've been reading more about McDonald and the book and I cannot wait to crack it open. I'm so pleased to have it recommended so strongly.
Once the script is sort of locked down, I think that preproduction storyboard rough layout phase will save tons of time in the actual rendering and page creation later on. It'll help you choose your camera angle, your bg space, and what your shot focus will be. Useful step that is more work but will save time.
Wow Amazon's pretty quick on the delivery. Did we mention that the entire McCloud book is in comicbook format. Complex concepts using panel art to share it.
I have read several reviews that make the point that this is why the book is now standard in many college graphic courses. I had, of course, run across it occasionally when searching for book resources but didn't find the cover appealling and I ususally look for Kindle-compatible editions becuase I use an iPad as my reference most of the time. I must confess, though, that I'm excited to have a physical book to curl up with!
So, with my most recent comic, I decided to do something a little weird... This is a Choose Your Own Adventure style comic, where every few pages I post up a page like the last one here that presents a bit of a cliffhanger to my supporters on Patreon. I'll then post up the same page, complete with options on how to proceed, and based on the results of the vote we'll move forward with the story. As you can see, I've interjected a bunch of small bread crumbs all over the place for them to explore, if they end up wanting to, and ultimately the culmination of all of these votes will decide how the comic ends. It's an interesting exercise, because I really had to pre-plan for a bunch of possibilities, but ensure none of my options take the story outside of where I want to go with it at a general level.
From a technical standpoint, I tried experimenting with different sizes and shapes of panels this time. Typically, things are a little... rectangular... but I thought I'd try to interject some visual flair. I'm not certain I love it, but I did learn that any panel shape other than rectangle really adds to the complexity when dealing with masks and such...
That's some outstanding artwork!
I think the "Choose your Adventure" angle a fascinating proposition. Great way to develop participation from your reader/fan base. Offering branching story possibilities will sure have you writing a lot of additional scenes. But its a great way to explore subplots, or backstories or alternate POVs.
Great looking pages! I do love the subtle half-tone look you apply and your colors. Really an inspiration to me.
Yeah, I think you're right. I was thinking that just thumbnail storyboarding each page would be sufficient (as far as sketching out the scene goes) but after seeing that video and how she letters, I believe that might be a better approach - sketching out a larger "full page" version with the exact panel and scene layouts and fleshed out scene design lightly sketched in - so that the planning of the space needed for the dialogue and other text will be more solid. Lettering BEFORE the actual scenes are rendered. That might take quite a bit of self-discipline. lol The most fun part for me is the scene creation/art creation - so saving that part until the last might be difficult. lol
These are great! I really like the panel layouts - they are cool. The way the truck "pops out" of the balloon in the establishing shot was a neat idea.
I had a laugh at the brother wearing the "inmate" jumpsuit. lol I was like: Huh? Ok, so maybe he JUST escaped from prison that night, why wouldn't he like at least change his clothes first? lol
Seams like the first thing an escaped convict would do would be to change their clothes to be less conspicuous. If you wanted to make it more clear to the viewer that he's an escaped convict perhaps just have one of the other characters say something like "What's it feel like to be a free man? World looks different on this side of the bars, eh?" or "Hope your time in the pen didn't make you rusty" or some other dialogue to indicate he's just out of prison.
Otherwise, the pages look great to me - I really enjoy the art style that you have developed! The story looks like it's going to get really exciting! I'm looking forward to seeing more.
THank you so much! Yeah, I think it's going to be fun, although more work than I'm used to. Honestly, I enjoy doing various renders and fun little one-offs to give the people on Patreon, I've really enjoyed their engagement so far so even though it's more work so far it's been a blast. I'm really glad you like it!
Thanks, man! I origionally decided to try to add some half-tone when I saw the Spiderverse movie that came out last year (maybe two years ago now?)... I even tried hand drawing my linework to try to get closer to the movie, but in the end the half-tone was the only thing that stuck! haha I'm excited to seeing more of your pages!
AH! See, that's all part of the "Choose Your Own Adventure" element... Are these guys really brothers? Did he just escape from prison? Maybe they're at the house to find a new set of clothes for him... Maybe the first thing they wanted to do when they got out was pay a visit to an "old friend"... I know none of this is helpful now, but I have a series of possibilities all written down here and depending on how the polls go we'll see how the stories play out.
At least, that's how I intended it LOL... none of that may have come across well, but I figured to at least give it a shot :)... I'm glad you like it, I'm encouraged by being able to show it off here a little!
Also, I saw in the other thread that you're getting closer to your comic release... is this true? I can't wait to see some of it!
Ahhh It's part of the Choose Your Own Adventure - gotcha! Cool then! I think that sounds like a lot of fun and a great way to engage your audience! :D That probably also helps you, as a writer, to become more flexible as a storyteller since you have others involved in how the story will unfold. That sounds fun, challenging, but also fun! :) I think that style you developed is great and I think your way of quickly grabbing the audience's attention is impressive! You've immediately established that things could get 'harry' and that you have kind of a loose cannon on your hands.
What really brought me in quickly is that I remembered the earlier scene that you had posted with the girl walking down the stairs toward the door. I thought - 'Hey! Is that part of the same story arch? Is SHE inside? Is she going to be ok?' I think if you have that as a teaser to give your audience a character to be concerned over, that might be really cool.
Oh no - I'm nowhere near my comic release! lol I'm still working on the script and doing a lot of tests with the NPR style I want to go with to make sure that it's going to be a valid option for telling the story that I want. I should start posting some images in the NPR style that I want to use, so that I can get some feedback - just to make sure there aren't any issues with it that maybe I'm missing. :)
Yep! You hit the nail on the head! That image with the gal ging down the stares will be on the inside cover... the "forward", I think it's called... where I just give a quick blurb about what the whole things about. She's also featured on teh cover, although she's not necessarily the main character... I just liked the DAZ model. Don't worry, nobody was harmed in the filming of this comic... My comics are a little strange... they fall into a certain niche... but I honestly don't try to glorify violence or anything crazy like that. Still, though... best to just leave it at these little previews haha. There's a reason I don't link to any of my stuff here ;)
Sharing a few new render tests with TwinMotion. Adjusting exposure/ambient/GI with line filter and halftone filter gives some interesting results:
I like this! I especially like the Test2 black and white image and the Linework test at the end! I can see combining a few of these to compose an image... The test 3 could provide really good contrast, also, to compliment a color pass... Are these straight from render? I'm not familiar with TwinMotion.
Twinmotion is a real time architectural visualization program bought by Epic Games. It has a free unlimited trial and, again, NO rendering, You adjust your lighting and camera and instantly see what you are getting. It has weather effects and can match lighting to any location on earth by month, day and time. For instance, here's Dreamlight's "Earthquake" version of Stonemason's building ruins imported into TwinMotion with a daylight setting. I did import a couple background ruined buildings, the billboard and a couple utility poles to add interest:
And here's the same scene with the weather setting turned to RAIN:
Notice how it includes particle raindrops and reflected surfaces automatically. It took less than 10 seconds for me to change from day to rain. For anyone used to waiting on a render it is extraordinary to change your lighting and camera while seeing results in real time.
It also has incredibly fun tools such as a terrain sculpting tool that lets you create terrains interactively and a "Vegetation Brush" that lets you paint grass or trees instantly with random scattering of objects. That same tool can paint rocks, leaves and debris allowing me to instantly create my ruined city sets (SEE BELOW -- it is quite enjoyable to strew rocks and debris around randomly!)
It also has some slightly hidden filtering tools that allow you to create a number of stylistic effects:
I think I played with the Unreal Engine awhile back, but it just wasn't anything that appealed to me over what I was already using. Do you do any game design or other work with it?
This is very cool and I can see how it combines well with your color passes. I can see that with some work that this could be built upon to create a more comic book / NPR style that could be very appealing.
One issue I do see is that the lines' thickness almost seem to be counter-intuitively stressed. By that, I mean that the lines on the helmet mesh and teeth are startlingly clear, whereas the lines on the body and clothing are very light. This is sort of the opposite of how you'd ink this by hand. Nevertheless, this is pretty good as a test and I'm intrigued to see what you do next.
BTW: I'm on a few deadlines at the moment, so please forgive me if I'm silent for a few days at a time.
This is a VERY interesting sounding tool. I take it you import the Daz stuff as OBJs or something like that? Does that mean you cannot pose them? Or do you work with native figures in the program? I'm really not remembering much about the time I played around with the Unreal Engine (I think I spent more time on Unity, if I recall correctly).
Oh, btw, there is a forum policy (for all of the DAZ forums) to please limit the width of your posted images to 800 pixels. This is to help people who view on tablets and phones.
@mmitchell_houston: I appreciate so much the info regarding forum image size. I wondered about that and I shall go back and edit my images later today to comply.
The workflow is to export models as OBJ files from DAZ. TwinMotion imports OBJ files with textures but there is no ability to pose figures. You CAN move the figures and objects however, which is nice to be able to refine a scene. Moreover, it has a good User Library function that makes it easy to bring in assets and drag and drop them in your TwinMotion scene. If you intend to move objects around it is best to place them at 0,0,0 in DAZ Studio so they import with pivot point centered in TwinMotion.
The line-art filters are very rudimentary and I am hoping Epic will allow some adjustment of line thickness at least in a future update. Right now it seems the LIGHT setting is too thin and the REGULAR setting too thick. However, by adjusting Lighting and Camera settings you can get some control. One issue you will note is that DAZ figure eyes need to be adjusted. When you import a figure the EYE MOISTURE becomes a mirror surface and the CORNEA opaque. Moreover you need to separately apply the eyelash opacity to make eyelashes appear realistic. Not a big deal once you get the hang of it and after you've adjusted a figure's materials the program remembers those material settings the next time you import the figure with a new pose.
Obviously, the program was designed for architectural visualization so it isn't an ideal environment. However, real-time rendering and its other amazing tools make it a superb addition to a comic artist's arsenal.
You guys were discussing this over in the NPR thread, but I thought this conversation fit better over here.
I paused a moment before writing this response. I gave it some serious thought as to whether or not I should say this in public (and that's usually a good indication that I shouldn't, but here goes). I've spoken to a lot of traditional comics artists (professional, semi-pro and amateur) and have been writing comics for fanzines since I was a teenager. Back then, as a lousy artist, I had no choice put to work with other people who could draw but couldn't write as well as I could. I also found out that I was better at doing breakdowns/page design and panel flow than a lot of the artists I worked with. Just because you're good at drawing the figure does NOT mean you're automatically good at pacing the story and knowing what to show and where to add emphasis. I also knew a lot of artists who didn't know when to break for the end of the page. By that, I mean they didn't realize that you could build dramatic tension by making the reader wait to flip the page. The typical use of this is the last panel showing the hero turn and gasp, "You?" and then flip the page to see the villain holding the damsel in distress with a gun at her head. Or in the Captain America page Diva provided, note how the action is all building up:
But back to making my own comics... So I started doing my scripts as page breakdowns and worked with artists who liked it that way and would build on what I sketched out (Steve Addlesee was great at this, as he would change camera angles and move figures around a bit – he said it made his work better because when he started bringing his vision to it, the work was already more than halfway to where it was going to end up). Steve and I were great collaborators. (BTW, I found out recently that when Jim Shooter was a teenager writing the Legion of Superheroes for DC, he would sketch out the scripts as full breakdowns for the artists; his editor would then rip them to pieces and Jim would have to fix things based on what the Editor wanted). I'm not sure how many comics I did breakdowns for, but it was probably in the range of 250-300 pages, many of which were finished by artists and published in fanzines.
Let's get back to 3D and the discussion at hand.
Now with 3D art, I can cut out the middleman and try to do it all myself: take the images in my mind (and in my thumbnails) and bring them to life. 3D also lets me experiment with subtle changes to the pose and expression and camera angles and sometimes I have a "happy accident" and discover something even better than what I originally imagined.
But, this brings us to the two quotes above, and I have to say that, for the most part, they are right. Not just right, but "100% right." But the traditionalists are almost completely wrong as to WHY.
3D is not the culprit as to why the finished products seem dull and lifeless. The problem is that most 3D comics are not good comics.
It has nothing to do with the use of 3D tools, it's just that too many 3D artists don't actually read comics on a regular basis, or if they do, they're not reading them to learn anything. @Diva, you kept saying in that example above that it was an EXTREME example. You're partly right, but I also must counter and say, "No, it's not really extreme. It's a standard action page by Jack Kirby." Kirby, of course, is one of the masters of the medium who instrumental in inventing most of the modern tropes of comics as know them today. Do you want to frame a page of dialogue the way it was set up in that page? I hope not! But as far as action goes? Yeah, this is a great page. (If you want to see great dialogue pages, go look up Strangers in Paradise by Terry Moore, Bone by Jeff Smith or look at Tomb of Dracula by Marve Wolfman and Gene Colon.)
Anyway, back to my point. Most of the 3D comics I've seen are not well done in terms of storytelling. The artists don't have a grasp of the basics as to when to include an establishing shot, when to allow a scene to play out slowly over a few panels, when to use close-ups and how to frame a scene with dialogue. In short, even if the artists are good at setting up their scenes and getting good lighting (not a lot are, btw, I see LOTS of 3D scenes that are not properly lit to show faces or reactions, or that don't know when to use a silhouette to simplify the composition, like Kirby did in that last panel of the page above). I've seen too many 3D comics that don't tell stories well. The next time you look at a page done in 3D, look at it and ask yourself, if a pro artist of the top caliber were to redraw that page, would it still be a good comics page? Unfortunately, the answer is almost always "no."
So, the solution to getting past the bias of the traditional artists? MAKE GREAT COMICS WITH 3D!
Write a good strip, block out your scenes, arrange your panels well, have good lettering, and above all else, do something in 3D that you cannot do better with hand-drawn comics.
As for something more concrete? Okay, here are some tips for 3D comics creators:
Anyway, I hope this gives you guys something to think about. And I hope I didn't come off as a preachy jerk.
Thanks. That's VERY useful information on the software.
After much testing, experimenting with different shaders, trying different extreme render settings, a huge variety of weird HDRIs both purchased and hand made, and lots and lots of tweaking, and refining, I'm pretty sure I've nailed down the render style that I want to go with for my comic. Here are some random scenes I rendered in the render style that I want to go with. Most of these scenes have nothing to do with my comic, but I wanted to just show a variety of scenes in the render style so that I can get a good handle on if it's going to be viable for a wide range of scenes that I'll need for my comic.
Feedback is welcome - as I might be "too close" to it to see if there are any real issues with it. But barring any major problems with the style, I'll probably go with it as I really like it! lol Hopefully there aren't any real issue with it though! :D
Some good points here. I pointed out the thumbnail and storyboarding thing earlier - and yeah, I think that's a good way to go. :) I totally agree on the Camera Tilt thing and focal length - as I pointed out in the other thread, dynamic angles and perspectives can really add a lot of energy to a scene. :) I think your tip on reading comics done by some of the "greats" is a really good one. Reading comics, period, can also help one to see what does and doesn't work. We can take what we see others do - both good and bad, and learn from it. Learning what NOT to do can be just as helpful as learning what TO DO. lol :D I've been reading a lot of comics lately (ComiXology has a TON of free comics) and when I come across a scene or panel that just doesn't work or a page that is confusing or hard to follow I take note of it and file it under "what not to do". lol All in all you gave some really great tips here, Mike! Thank you!
Oh and as for me calling the example Captain America page "Extreme" - I stand by that. lol You have to admit that some of the poses are a little on the extreme side and look a little cartoonish and even a tad comical. lol Look at Captain America in the first panel and look at where his waist is and where his head is - it looks almost like he's broken his back! lol He doesn't have to wait for the bad guys to hurt him, it looks like he's gone and hurt himself and thrown his back and neck out. lol And yeah, that's a 100% valid style - "over the top" poses and action is a staple in a lot of comics and there's nothing wrong with that at all if that's the style that you want to go for. I think my point was that it's on the extreme end of adding dynamic energy to a scene. :) You can inject energy and dynamism into a scene without pushing it quite that far where it becomes almost comical, imo. Again though, if that's the style one wants to go with that's completely valid and it's been proven to do well - so if one likes it, run with it!. I think one can take that same lesson though and bring it into a little more realistic frame, imo. :) Again, that's just my own personal opinion on it. :)
I think a lot of your suggestions are really helpful - thank you for the feedback, Mike! I'll definitely be keeping in mind these great tips!
Here's another in that render style. This one I added balloons to for some lettering practice as well as a glint effect on her sword.
That looks great, Diva! Lightening up the image in general really helps contrast the black lines, and I really like the thick black lines in general. The slightly colored balloon is a nice subtle touch, too. Keep 'em coming!
- Greg
THIS is such an awesome post and I completely agree with your analysis @mmitchell_houston , I cannot thank you enough for your wisdom. And @3Diva, I gotta say that you blow me away again with your latest images. I look forward to learning more from you as to your techniques and what you've learned through your experimentation.
@mmitchell_houston I appreciate so much your taking the time to share some of your background. I value your opinions and input so greatly. I think you hit several nails on the head with your post.
Most people have no idea how many diverse talents have to all be executed well for a comic or graphic novel to work. There's a reason that serious publishers assemble teams to create titles and we are here in the Indie trenches trying to cover all the bases on our own. You won me over when you took the time to suggest several references with explanation as to why you chose them. I've been working through all of them and have ordered McDonald's "Making Comics" to complete the list. I've also added a couple more highly regarded references for dialogue and character arcs that build on some of the writing references I've got in my library.
This is a new horizon for me but I find it quite analagous to film. I began writing and producing around 2003 and have worked on countless indie sets so I have a real healthy appreciation of how many damn moving parts are involved in producing a film. Other than a few small projects I haven't attempted to direct, lens or edit projects and, instead, have focused on writing and producing. I'm very aware of how every element of filmmaking has the potential for ruining the final product. The same applies to a graphic novel or comic project and I'm especially grateful to be able to discuss all elements here, including story considerations. If you have six minutes to spare, I'd be honored if you would watch the short sci-fi film I wrote and co-produced called "O2" HERE. It is SO damn hard to produce a film of any genre, let alone a sci-fi story that relies upon effects and sets. We had no budget but I was not willing to give up and I was able to get the set, wardrobe and actors gratis while using a totally volunteer crew. It isn't great art, but I'm proud of what we accomplished and I feel it tells a story well within the limitations of time and resources. I would very much like to discuss storytelling and how to harness sequential imagery to engage and keep an audience. I know it is much different than film, but there certainly are areas of overlap and I'm hoping my experience will help me in this new medium.
I am committed to doing the very best I can to tell a story through 3D and I'm well aware I'll need to bust my rear, learn and listen to those of you who have been slogging in the trenches. My only goal is to create a work that I feel satisfied with and I'm going to hold myself to high standards to achieve the finished product. To get there I'm going to shamelessly pick your brains, post work in progress and ask a lot of dumb questions. I hope you forgive me for any faux pas I commit or for coming across as though I have any ego. I'm happy to accept criticism no matter how harsh. Honesty is everything to me.
In the end I'm not going to work for Marvel and I'm not going to measure my success by anything other than my own standards. Above all, I care about sincerity and honesty and I do so much value any assistance, advice, encouragement or darts you all care to send this way.
That was excellent, @thedoctor! Looking forward to the comics you produce and stories you tell. Cheers!
- Greg
These are amazing! SO clean, but the colors are so vibrant and consistant... very neat! It feels like some super contemporary new-age cell shaded look! In particular, my favorites are the one with the lady in the entryway of the house and the one in the soldier uniform. Just awesome, I'd totally read a comic like that. I also like how clear and legible your speech bubbles are in that example frame. I think, with my stuff, I often go a little overboard on some of the messy lines and everything, and then the speech gets lost a bit, and I sometimes wonder if reading mine are fatiguing on the eyes. Yours would be very easy to read even with a lot on the screen, because of how crisp the lines are. I really like it!
Hey @mmitchell_houston all of your suggestions were well thought out and I couldn't agree with you more! I feel the same as you on many points, but at the same time I'm constantly running into situations where people are just biased against 3D because they've seen so much bad that they refuse to give any more time to seeing if there could possibly be a good one out there. I think, unfortunately, in 3D we suffer from consumers who lump all 3D together and then think "well I tried that, and it sucked", just like any other specific type of product. When you see a badly drawn 2D comic (and there are a million of them), we know in the back of our heads that for ever bad example there is a good example, and overall I think we're just starting to scratch the surface of what 3D comics could look like.
For instance, if I were to draw a 2D comic I'd continue using the same wacom I've had for 10 years, I can use Adobe Photoshop 2010 because it still works, adn my comic will look amazing... HOWEVER, here in 3D land I see peopel trying to use AI to create linework, merge applications together to create amazing vistas, even write custom scripts and algorithms that do something that until now there was no solution for. This medium is moving FAST. So fast, that the last page of evey comic I do looks different than the first because I've simply learned and grown in that short of a time period, something that just doesn't happen at this pace in the 2D/traditional inking world at this point.
I think that there will be great 3D comics, and simply keeping at it and being persistant will be key to being there front-row when it happens. Until then, there will always be those biased against 3D, and there will be a crap-ton of them, because we live in a world exposed to everybody, and they're all watching us struggle, and test, and try, and (sometimes) fail, and the truth is that we may never win them over. I think that abandoning the goal of winning those people over is the best thing we can do for ourselves, and focusing on making great comics is going to be the key forward.
OK I know that was a lot of words... as you can tell, I've struggled with this a bit, myself. The bias is frickin' real... But I agree with everything you said, and I could not have said it better myself :)
I appreciate your encouragement so much. I've spent HOURS studying the images you've created with your filtering techniques and it really has inspired me. I really look forward to following your continuing progress. Some of your animation tests are incredible. Kudos!