Dforce strand based hair, a way to solution?p
chakib3
Posts: 37
hello I am trying to make a dforce on strand based hair, i been able to aply my dforce dynamic surface modifier to the stand based hair and make the weigth painting(activate line teselation review and selected the surface on surface tab then aply dforce like usual), but wen I simulate thesimulation work but my hair are not a line anymore they turne to a kind of ribon(I put an image)
I dont know daz enougth but for the ones who now beter, do you see anyway to turnn back the hair to a line render after the similation? I dont know perhaps turn it to real geometri eand after that back to line or somthing??
that be really cool if we could use that for real dforce strand based hair
edit I add another image , like you see the root of the hair were they are no weigth painting stay as line but the part afected by the simulation turn to ribon, I will try some things but if you have any idea that bes good
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ok I mlake it work, at least without colision with other things,, after some try on the settings its look like turning collision mode to '"swept vertex" and desactivate self colision make it work perfectly, going to sleep and I make more deep tests tomorow with real haircut and a body, (hope colision with other pbject will not afect the lines, self colision crate artefacts, if you have some idea to imrove that dont hesitate
Only Daz Vendors can make strand based hair dforce. Us users don't have whatever special plugin that Vendors have to make this type of hair correctly.
lol are you serious did you not read what I said, I alredy made it work , sono not only vendor can do it, I still have some litel things to fix but that actualy work so dont said that dont
since my last pôst I found how to make it work properly, tomorow I do a test with a real haircut, (the simulation time are realy high but that work
EDIT: I think they are quote from Oscar Wild that fit prefectly to the situation " he didn't know it was impossible, so he did it"
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ All right then. Good luck with it.
The key things for dForce simulation on dynamic surfaces of an SBH are Pre-Simulation / Pre-Render settings. As a user you have no way to add these settings to the SBH you made with SBH Editor. PS / PR settings guide the hair to drape as polylines rather than mesh.
With the SBH you made, you can only add dForce modifier as well as simulate it by turning on Preview PR Hair beforehand. With Render Line Tessellation Sides 3 (as defaut), now the hair turns into pure polygonal hair rather than polylines ( polylines are subject to the value set in Render Line Tessellation Sides < = 1...). Without PS/PR settings guiding hair's simulation, it's really difficult to get a well draping result while keeping the shape of hair mesh at the same time.
It's just like making an OOT's transmapped hair to be dForce ready... It ever took me nearly 3 hours to make a complex OOT's "old hair product" to drape well... let alone it was still not perfect.
to be honest that look like working but the suimulation times are so long than you beter do it by hand lol, anyway it was a try perhaps some day they will let us accec to the plug ins
until then I wll jus tconvert my strand hair to hair cards and do the dforce thing on the hair card, that I know that work
Simulating every interpolated strand will take forever.
You can probably export to Blender and regenerate the equivalent of PS and PR Hairs in Blender using the geometry node system, and then simulate in Blender. I have no idea how to do this, but seems like most obvious choice if you want to simulate custom hair without becoming a PA.
my prupose on long time is to becam PA, but I need to practice a moment befor sending my work to daz, I iscovred daz only few months ago, I am skilled 3D artist but aven then I need time to understand all the philosophie of daz
but yeah you have right , i am searching complicate wen I can do simple, I alredy know how to export hair to blender so I will do the smulation in blender
thanks for the idea, I mean I can export with the bridg to blender and do all the posing ther an render with cycle,
or do te posing of the hair manualy, if I do my hair corectky with selction saves I can do the posing quite quickly I thiink,
Not sure the bridge is fully necessary, but obviously an option. Rendering in Cycles probably is not necessary, as you could bring the simulated hair back into Daz to render it if you wanted to. You can of course do whichover process works for you though.
Daz will probably accept hair that isnt converted with dForce. My understanding is that initial PA acceptance is based on Promos I believe, rather than finished products. Once you are accepted as PA, it seems reasonable that they could be convinced to give you access to whatever tools to finish the product for release. But i have no idea how tightly they secure those tools and the order of operations here.
TO be honest the only rason IO tryied simulation on strand is to know exactly what i can do with daz an wich product I can sell for my self befor becam PA, I think I will need year at least befor sending a work to daz but until then I want sell on rendrosty and other site, I am just experimenting to no exactly wich product I can actualy creat and wich I can't
ok I will look about how to realy becom PA, but I think I readed they ask to send 3 finished product,
strand based hair stay a realy good option anyway, I like the easy way to create complicated hair cuts, wen you know what you are doing achiev realy detailled and complicated hair style take no time, and if you make your memorized selction the rigth way the posing should be not complicated, the simulation was just for me to see if that can be selled or no, clearly no, so I will seel simpl strand based hair with good locks selction in memori to make it easy to pose
thanks for the help
some of the most talented modellers and animators I know have been turned down by DAZ as PAs and recently too, so who knows what their criteria is, good luck
ok so if don't be a PA1 I still can sell my product on rendrosity and other site, perhaps it's even beter since they stoped genesis 8 and manyy people look about other way to have new product for genesis 8
yes but would have to be static, potentially with morphs instead of dforce simulation
they are no way to doing morph on strand too, no I will just sell a dynamic version with the hair cards, its realy easy conver strand to hair card with geometrie node on blender, and hair card respond really good to dynamics will its real gemoetrie
, what the point you dont even see the shoulders to set up nicely your hair for long hair, and dont have the intersection and colision detection, and that not most stupid thing I saw on hair creation on daz
also I didn't give up completly for doing somthing on dforce strand based, if I had a so long simulation time yesterday is because daz had reste the setting to theyr default value wen I saved the file and relaod it, I give it a try again just quckly this morning, and the simulation time i down to less then 8 minutes what is resoneable I tink, of cours you cant render that directly they are no enougth hair and they still are artefac deformation in the hair but I alreay thougth about two mac gyver ways to resolve that,
I can export the result on blender convert as curves rebuild the hair with geometrie node, send back to daz and convert tube to line to make the render
or second otption ,export the result , iport it back, convert ribon to line(teslations is 2 so is ribon not tube I thinkà and after that duplicate the result two or three time , make a littel offset betwens the copies to have more lines , and render,
Of cours I could not sell that , to much mc gyver work, but for my own render I think I will try, perhaps I will found way to improve it , and if that work good I will make a tutorial on mt twitch chaon and post it on youtube
I already think abut making a quick tips and tricks about strand hair creation and export, I saw to many stupid or not efficient way of working in all the turorial I saw on youtbe, I mean people do theyr hair directly on hair caps in place to d it on the genesis figure
A littel update about my experimetn, I actulay made it work, and with simulation time not to high, for the one who want try the secret is using the swept vertex colision mode and REDUCE the quality of simulation( that worked for me with 4 subfame and 20 iteratin per subframe)
for the simulation setting of the surface (of course you have to activate line tesselation visualisation, put it to 2 for beter result),turn off self colide, you have to put stretsh sitifness to maximmu , up the shear stifness to 40 or 50, the bukcling stifness hav to be 20 or 30, up the contraction ratio(140 is good otion or even higer, put damping to 30 or 40 and velociti smothing to 50 or 60 with 1 or2 iteration, and also you have to put the hair thikness to 0.05 for roots and tips in the strand based hair editor;(you will up the root and tip thikness after the simulation to set them up to your need
of course they are limitation, you cant change your density hair after paint the wheigth map, you have to work with density of 5 or 10, that work with more but you have realy longer simulation time,
I have simulated Zbrush fibermesh hairs so it is possible, just not as curves which of course means a very very heavy simulation
I may retry with the settings you suggested
I thougth about a solution for that, I didnt try but aI think it could work, we could work with a really low density and create a instance node with 10 copy for example, you aligne your instances with the original and atach them to the head like the original, and jut spread them around the origina position in 2mm radius for example, like that you recreate your density with instances that not use much emorie(they ue the original geometrie)
bit DIY but I think that could work, that wil make the siulation time realy low becaus of the density and all the instances will be simulated in the sme time without more calculation
ho and I alos forget you have to up just littele bit the stretch and th shear damping , but realy like0.16
I already use geometry shells AND instances to plush it out, I do that with hair cards too
ho okey so you confirm me that work, good, thank you, I was like i know that work on other software but daz is so special perahaps that don"t work, but yeah good if that work
WendyLuvsCatz you said you use geometry sheel in this case, but how do you use it, ? I try to guesss, not familiar with geometiry shells
they are like offset instances but can have different UV's so you can tile hair cutout opacity mapped textures horizontally or offset those along the horizontal axis to make more "hairs"
i think I understood, you add a geometry shel to the hair and add a texture to simulate 3 or 4 hair for evry single fiber; is it that?
no afterwards you add the geometry shell/s to render more hairs
thats what I ws meaning, you ad a shel and put a texture on it to make aevy single hair looking like 3 hairs? sorry english is my third lunguage I not always express my self the rigth whay
Adding geo-shells is especially a workaround for the hairs made with tubes because the pros of tube hairs is that they can drape pretty well and stably but the cons is that their Base geometry + textures look sparse. So multiple geo-shell layers make the hairs look more denser. For instance, the tube hairs from Linday usually have 2 ~ 3 shells... For other type of hairs, adding geo-shells is not necessary.
As for controlling draping behaviors of the hairs with dForce simulations, simulation properties on pure SBH are much stronger than the default simulation properties on dynamic surfaces because they can well use the PR/PS settings to controll draping on both hair roots and tips. On your polygonal hairs, there's no such a capability, so in most of the cases, you'll find some issues like: hairlines falling down, too much mesh deformations, without a good initial shape the hair won't drape well, the hair roots drape well but hair tips don't or vice versa, not easy to control Friction behavior esp. when colliding with other items (e.g. hairlines easily "stick to" garments....) yada yada ~
So in addition to tweak properties values on dyanamic surfaces and well paint the weight on dFormce weight node, you also can use weight map to control the subtle change of hair mesh. For instance, the settings of Shear and Buckling Stiffness on dynamic surfaces control the draping of hair mesh universally... then you can further add weight maps of Shear / Buckling Stiffness to the weight node to refine the draping behaviors... so on and so forth.
Anyway you have to experiment a lot with various situation before making a really good dForce hair ~~
of couse I understand that, but I like experimenting so is not a mater, I alredy have qute good results, but need to improve befor I can sell that, but I have all teh time, I am not hurry
Well then... good luck.
to me all these inelegant workarounds just seem so unoptimised when there is already a proper way to make children hairs that simulate with the parent hairs... Daz has just made thier implementation of it proprietary. But can do same thing in other software.
Obviously if you are getting good results with your workaround then proceed as you deem fit, just seems more logical to not invest too much time on problems that have already been solved for many years with actual good tools
I like solving problem with other solutions, of course they are way to do it with other softwares but for daz studio if you want line like dynamic hair like you said daz made it propietary, but I don't like this philosophie, so if I found way to do somthing with a good quality and not to long time of simulation then I am a vendor , so I will have a lot of people who wil look about sheap solution to have dynamic hair with good quality, is not a wasted time