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What kind of voodo is required to bring a 3DS rig into Carrara 8.1?

bobhbobh Posts: 0
edited December 1969 in Carrara Discussion

What kind of voodoo does one need to know about bringing a 3DS rig into Carrara?

The reason I ask is that I tried to open a 3DS 2012 rig in Carrara according to the included documentation (for C6 I might add, which doesn't even contain the word "COLLADA" anywhere). It was an absolute mess, with much of the rig not even being recognized/making it onto the screen. Worse, no errors of any kind were reported by C8.1, so I have no clue as to anything I should be trying to diagnose.

Tragically and predictably, there's obviously some level of voodoo that one must know to get this to work. As such, I have a few basic questions:

1. What file format should I export out of 3DS that C8.1 can import with the least amount of Rube Goldberg?

2. Does Carrara 8.1 require export from a specific version of 3DS Max like 3DS9 or 2010 (is 3DSMAX 2012 too recent for C8.1)? If this is a factor, what is the most recent version of 3DS Max that C8.1 plays nice with? This is really critical to my pipeline.

3. Is there a well-established (or generally agreed upon) stable pipeline for 3DS rigs into Carrara 8.1?

4. What other tricks do you gurus have to offer that I need to know that would get 3DSMAX rigs into Carrara and make this work the way Carrara is actually advertized?

And please, if at all possible - no useless parables/analogies, philosophical musings, elaborate corporate takeover histories or chronic paper documentation browbeatings - just plain direct answers are what I seek here if at all possible.

"Paging Dr. Wendy - your presence is requested in the ER, stat."

:-)

Mucho Thanko!

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Comments

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,050
    edited August 2012

    You want the model and the rig? I'm assuming you'd have to export from 3ds using fbx and import into Carrara using fbx. Other than that, I have no clue as I do not have 3ds. I've opened 3ds models in Carrara, but not rigs. Wendy may have a bit more knowledge using fbx, so hopefully she'll pop in with a suggestion or two.


    Edited to add: Why not rig in Carrara? What's the advantage of bringing in a 3ds rig? Is there an animation you want to keep?

    Post edited by evilproducer on
  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    evilproducer said:
    You want the model and the rig? I'm assuming you'd have to export from 3ds using fbx and import into Carrara using fbx. Other than that, I have no clue as I do not have 3ds. I've opened 3ds models in Carrara, but not rigs. Wendy may have a bit more knowledge using fbx, so hopefully she'll pop in with a suggestion or two.


    Edited to add: Why not rig in Carrara? What's the advantage of bringing in a 3ds rig? Is there an animation you want to keep?

    You hit the nail on the head - I have some existing content/rig from 3DS that I obtained elsewhere (at great expense) and was hoping to use it as is. I am not skilled enough yet to rig in Carrara (I'll get there). It is also quite a complex rig that took a well-paid, seasoned pro to create.

    Love your responses and posts, by the way. You had some great answers for me in my desperate "noob/where to start" thread that I really appreciated. :-)

    I will try the FBX approach tonight, as you suggest - I tried to open the .3DS file as the documentation suggested and it didn't go well.

  • MiloMilo Posts: 511
    edited December 1969

    One thing, though it wouldn't retain everything (weight mapping etc). If you can export a .BVH file, when you import a BVH contains the Rig used. Then you would have to apply it to the OBJ. Might have to scale or other things. But you could get the basic rig that way I think

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,317
    edited December 1969

    fbx import works better in the C8.5 beta, with C8.1 you might need to reduce it to one animation take in Autodesk fbx convertor and also export it as 2009.
    some just come in a twisted mess, suspect it has to do with how they were exported from Max.
    I ofcourse do not have Max! I just play with fbx files exported from Max by others so do not know what options there are on that end.

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    wendy♥catz said:
    fbx import works better in the C8.5 beta, with C8.1 you might need to reduce it to one animation take in Autodesk fbx convertor and also export it as 2009.
    some just come in a twisted mess, suspect it has to do with how they were exported from Max.
    I ofcourse do not have Max! I just play with fbx files exported from Max by others so do not know what options there are on that end.

    I'm sure you're right, Wendy. Not surprised to hear that it's something 8.5 does better. One of these days I'll have to get it loaded up, I'm still on 8.1.

    You're right, it comes in as a mess. Most of the model itself never made it to the screen, but the complete rigging made it. Strange to see all the rigging floating in space but the model it's supposed to be attached to was 80% missing. I exported the mode/rig from MAX 2012 in 2012 FBX format. I can export in 2011, 2009, 2007, etc format FBX files.

    There are probably 2 things I did wrong last night:

    1. I exported in a format that's too recent. I'll try 2009 format FBX tonight.
    2. 3DSMAX 2012 has quite the complex FBX export dialog box that comes up, and its filled with a gazzllion export option checkboxes that I do not understand. I'm quite sure that I'm botching this part up and exporting an incomplete model/rig. C8 is not giving me any errors when I try to import it, so that's good. I obviously have a lot to read about what all those options mean and do to the 3DSMAX export.

    For what it's worth though, it was pretty cool to see the whole rig make it into C8.1. Now I just need to get the rest of the missing 80% of the model to join the party.

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    -_Milo_- said:
    One thing, though it wouldn't retain everything (weight mapping etc). If you can export a .BVH file, when you import a BVH contains the Rig used. Then you would have to apply it to the OBJ. Might have to scale or other things. But you could get the basic rig that way I think

    Milo, thanks for the info. If you have any experience in exporting FBX from MAX, I'm definitely all ears and really need the assistance. I have MAX2012, but I'm really not out to learn it right now, I am actually farm mroe attracted to the DAZ products. I just need to bring a fairly complex MAX rig into Carrara. I want to use this rig for my C8 learning/training that I'm in the process of right now, and need the rig for an upcoming business project.

    I have no motion associated with the rig at this time - just the rig itself. So whatever MAX is including in the FBX export is what I'm trying to bring into C8. I'm totally new to all of this, so I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to really be looking out for here in terms of export settings in MAX and what I need to do with the rig after import in C8.

    I'll take any advice I can get in here and add it to the info I'm Googling about MAX settings...

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 3,311
    edited December 1969

    HI BobH :)

    Do you have a screenshot of the "rig" you want to export from Max,
    Q: is it a model you've made ?
    Q: is it rigged using a "Biped" in Max,?


    To get your Model across to Carrara, the easiest method would be FBX

    You can also simply export the Model from Max as an OBJ (there should be an option for export to Carrara) which will scale it as required.
    You can then create a simple bone rig in Carrara to animate the figure.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,317
    edited December 1969

    have you downloaded Autodesk FBX converter too, I try stuff in that to see if it works and it has some samples included.

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    wendy♥catz said:
    have you downloaded Autodesk FBX converter too, I try stuff in that to see if it works and it has some samples included.

    Good tip, I'll give it a try. :-)

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    3DAGE said:
    HI BobH :)

    Do you have a screenshot of the "rig" you want to export from Max,
    Q: is it a model you've made ?
    Q: is it rigged using a "Biped" in Max,?


    To get your Model across to Carrara, the easiest method would be FBX

    You can also simply export the Model from Max as an OBJ (there should be an option for export to Carrara) which will scale it as required.
    You can then create a simple bone rig in Carrara to animate the figure.


    3DAGE, EvilProducer, and other gurus,

    I actually have the full body model/rig of the Terminator T-800 that Chris Poole used in his posted render, which included only the head in his render. I'll use that as my example. It is a 3DS Max 9 model/rig that I got off of the internet. I can open it just fine in MAX 2012. This is a perfect example of something to bring into Carrara from MAX, something I plan on doing regularly as so many do. So this would be a good candidate for me to learn with and get my feet wet. Anybody that can coach me in getting the hang of this would be a hero to me.

    I'm not any kind of modeler, and have not yet gone through my studies on rigging, so my intent was to preserve the existing rig that was originally produced by the original 3DS MAX artist (and since the work is already done, I figured why reinvent any wheels?).

    EvilProducer, you obviously have some experience in this, I've seen your Millennium Falcon and Cygnus renders, very impressive. I note that you stated that you had imported those models from elsewhere, so I consider you an expert on this subject of bringing existing models (and rigs) in. I'm all ears to anyone with experience and advice, so keep it coming! :-)

    BTW, Here's the Terminator T-800 that I have, posted by Chris Poole as a "head only": http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/221/#6852

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,317
    edited December 1969

    is the fbx version free (or isn't there one, only MAX? )
    only Teminator rigged for free I know of is this one
    which is rigged for Poser, never tried it though but now I am wanting to do some twisted Teminator video thx to you
    Turbosquid has rigged fbx one for $18
    I could ofcourse grab the nicer obj off the 3D models that I have also seen and rig it myself in Carrara.

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 3,311
    edited December 1969

    Hi BobH :)

    It's likely that the T800 (Head Only) image,.. is simply an un-rigged Model in OBJ format imported into carrara.

    As for bringing a complete Model plus rigging from Max, it should be as simple as Exporting the FBX from Max, and importing it into Carrara. the FBX should include the Model, it's bones rig, and any animation.

    You also need to understand that in many 3D programs, there are features and functions which are specific to that program and will not work in the same way when you export / import into another program.

    With that in mind, I'd still suggest trying the FBX route, and see what that gives you,.. and then try exporting the Model (without bones), as an OBJ file, then import that into Carrara, and create a simple bone rig for it.

    Creating a Bone rig is much simpler, and easier to do in Carrara, than it is in Max, even although Max has a Biped system, the weighting system (physique) is highly complex.

    Hope it helps :)

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    wendy♥catz said:
    is the fbx version free (or isn't there one, only MAX? )
    only Teminator rigged for free I know of is this one
    which is rigged for Poser, never tried it though but now I am wanting to do some twisted Teminator video thx to you
    Turbosquid has rigged fbx one for $18
    I could ofcourse grab the nicer obj off the 3D models that I have also seen and rig it myself in Carrara.

    I bought the one off of Turbosquid. That T-800 model from Turbosquid is a 3DS MAX v9 model. It's also the model that Chris Poole used, and I want to bring this into Carrara for my own purposes.

    Ok, Wendy, you sound like a volunteer on this. How do we go about it (other than dragging Chris into this)? ;-)

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,317
    edited December 1969

    well I am not quite prepared to buy a model off Turbosquid just to see if it works though $18 is pretty cheap for Turbosquid, the one there was in obj and fbx, I did not see .MAX as an option, so does the fbx open in fbx convertor?
    if you cannot get the fbx to import properly into Carrara I am afraid I will definately not be buying that one anyway (it sounded quite fancy though)

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    3DAGE said:
    Hi BobH :)

    It's likely that the T800 (Head Only) image,.. is simply an un-rigged Model in OBJ format imported into carrara.

    As for bringing a complete Model plus rigging from Max, it should be as simple as Exporting the FBX from Max, and importing it into Carrara. the FBX should include the Model, it's bones rig, and any animation.

    You also need to understand that in many 3D programs, there are features and functions which are specific to that program and will not work in the same way when you export / import into another program.

    With that in mind, I'd still suggest trying the FBX route, and see what that gives you,.. and then try exporting the Model (without bones), as an OBJ file, then import that into Carrara, and create a simple bone rig for it.

    Creating a Bone rig is much simpler, and easier to do in Carrara, than it is in Max, even although Max has a Biped system, the weighting system (physique) is highly complex.

    Hope it helps :)



    Thanks 3DAGE, FBX it is, then. It seems to be the rather obvious choice, from what I'm reading. But my previous attempt at this brought in the rig just fine - it was about 80% of the model that didn't make it. My feeling is that I was using too modern of a version of FBX and should probably export in an older version, probably as old as MAX allows. Anybody got a lot of experience exporting FBX from MAX to set me straight on this? It's one seriously complex dialog box that comes up, and there's much I don't understand. I feel like a toddler sitting in the seat of a Boeing 747 when I'm trying to pull off an FBX export in MAX 2012. Can't even see the yoke, my binky is in the way.

    Wendy, I'm gonna try that free utility you mentioned.

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    wendy♥catz said:
    well I am not quite prepared to buy a model off Turbosquid just to see if it works though $18 is pretty cheap for Turbosquid, the one there was in obj and fbx, I did not see .MAX as an option, so does the fbx open in fbx convertor?
    if you cannot get the fbx to import properly into Carrara I am afraid I will definitely not be buying that one anyway (it sounded quite fancy though)

    When I purchased the model, I noted that I was able to download several versions of it, both .3DS projects that are set up for either MentalRay and VRay renderers. You get all umpteen trillion files with each project that MAX produces (what a mes). I'll go back and check to see if there's a generic FBX download that I missed when I get home.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,317
    edited December 1969

    I see it does indeed have a .MAX file
    did you download the fbx too?
    & $15 not 18 if it is this one so not too bad but I will wait and see how you go first before considering it, %-P

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,317
    edited December 1969

    ah, crosspost

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    wendy♥catz said:
    I see it does indeed have a .MAX file
    did you download the fbx too?
    & $15 not 18 if it is this one so not too bad but I will wait and see how you go first before considering it, %-P

    I bought this one: http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/terminator-cyborg-machine-3d-model/451225

    And it is not going well. I'll post below.

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    Ok, here are a few images of my FBX import process into Carrara. it is not going well, and I really need some help. See for yourself:

    MaxRig01.jpg
    1680 x 1020 - 327K
    Post edited by bobh on
  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Tried COLLADA - No Go.

    MaxRig02_Collada_Export.jpg
    772 x 721 - 208K
  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Then tried FBX. Not so many errors. But...

    MaxRig04_FBX_2009_Export.jpg
    772 x 721 - 91K
  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    And here's what Carrara does with it (FBX). Note the rig comes in just fine - it's the MODEL that's getting blown to hell:

    MaxRig05_C81_Import.jpg
    1680 x 1020 - 408K
    Post edited by bobh on
  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I circled in red what is supposed to be the eyes and the sides of the head. It's that screwed up.

    MaxRig06_C81_Import.jpg
    1680 x 1020 - 409K
  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    This is what it looks like if I bring it in as a worthless complete OBJ file.

    MaxRig07_OBJ_C81_Import.jpg
    1680 x 1020 - 337K
    Post edited by bobh on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,317
    edited December 1969

    since I do not have Max (and oh I wish I did and umpteen other lovely software suites inc even photoshop)
    I find it difficult to help, does the fbx provided by Turbosquid import?
    (you should be able to still download it, it will be in your account under my models)
    if it does you need to see what is different between it and your export
    also download a free model of anything to test that we can also download to give feed back.

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    So I tried the AutoDesk FBX converter. I cannot ge it to work without crashing. I get it all set and when I click to actually run the convert, it crashes. This is the only app I have ever had crash n my system, like ever (I'm a computer scientist by trade, so I take a lot of pride in the health of my systems).


    HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!

    This is a DISASTER! I need the model and rig, and I'm running into nothng but garbage at every turn!

    Anybody got any bones to throw me here?

    Post edited by bobh on
  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    wendy♥catz said:
    since I do not have Max (and oh I wish I did and umpteen other lovely software suites inc even photoshop)
    I find it difficult to help, does the fbx provided by Turbosquid import?
    (you should be able to still download it, it will be in your account under my models)
    if it does you need to see what is different between it and your export
    also download a free model of anything to test that we can also download to give feed back.


    No FBX provided by Turbosquid for this model/rig, unfortunately.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,317
    edited December 1969

    they WILL do free conversions for paid models so worth a try
    odd that fbx converter crashes, it does for me on corrupt files btw!
    occasionally my Carrara rigging explodes in particular if I use a bvh skeleton with animation upon export to iClone 3Dxchange,
    (OK in Carrara, it will also do so as a dae in Blender as do ALL animated Daz figures)
    those files crash fbx converter, likewise some animated dae of Daz figures, from studio too!

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    GrrRRrrrr

    MaxRig08_3DS_Convert_Fail.jpg
    1449 x 745 - 167K
    Post edited by bobh on
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