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I am one of the users who basically uses DAZ Studio primarily, but I also got Carrara (latest) installed.
So ...
1. 158
2. Daz Studio
3. Yes (I already buy and use G3F items)
Hi Renpatsu. Welcome. Regarding your point of "Also, if users here argue that Carrara users got Daz Studio installed and due to that Daz is not able to tell that the items are bought for use with Carrara, then I am the opposite example. I got both suites and use the items I bought with Daz Studio these days."
I agree 100% and tried to make that same point, This is what I said. "But whether daz already tracked by user or not (not just owner - some people own Carrara but don't use it) the thread did what it set out to do. Since daz marketing surveys often don't mention using Carrara, it is hard to see how they would be tracking by Carrara user instead of Carrara owner."
Given the absence of Carrara usage (not just ownership) as an option on some recent Daz marketing surveys, threads like this one are all the more useful. Sales of Carrara-dedicated products such as Howie Farkes scenes understimate the impact of Carrara, but as Renpatsu rightly points out, reliance on mere ownership of Carrara would also be incorrect because not everyone who owns Carrara uses it. Bottom line - to those who claim Daz must already know the information that the OP of this thread intended to survey, such knowledge by Daz's marketing staff should not be assumed. There is no obvious place from Daz's store records to match up Carara usage to the correct portion of store content that is labeled for use with Poser or Studio, but is actually used in Carrara.
This thread was started when Daz failed to provide immediate Carrara compatibility with genesis 3. I note that Daz also failed to provide complete genesis 3 compatibility with Poser. Daz does not have to add a whole suite of functions to Carrara in order to add compatibility with genesis 3. Similarly, Smith Micro does not have to add a whole suite of functions to Poser in order to add compatibility with geness 3. Hopefully, this very biased (in a statistical sense) survey of Carrara owners will be a reminder that the contribution of Carrara users to content sales is not limited to Carrara-only products - but neither is mere ownership of Carrara the correct measure.
In some of the other forums (yes, I often go to other forums when I want to find and share information that is not focused on or limited to Carrara), there have been PAs who have discussed the burden that they feel when they try to make their products compatible for both Studio and Poser. If the shader and rigging systems of Studio and Poser continue to drift apart, Carrara compatibility is likely to be even more problematic going forward. I will track down an example of such a thread and add it as an edit.
It is very low cost for Carrara users who are also forum participants (same for Bryce) to remind Daz that we buy content labeled Poser or Studio.
I don't claim to have any information on what DAZ does or doesn't know about usage. I, like everyone else here, can only speculate. And the best speculation is the one that comes from rational analysis based on reasonable information. And that's what I set out to do.
How can DAZ guesstimate how many people are actively using Carrara? Well, here's some ideas which seem reasonable. If you have better information, then please share it.
1. How many people have purchased Carrara from DAZ is clearly available to DAZ. It includes when the purchase was made, and presumably that also provides some information on how likely that user is to buy content. Newer users probably tend to buy more content. Not 100%, but at least some information. And it is tied into the database of content purchases by user in each buyer's account. (eg, diomede purchased Carrara on this date and has purchased this list of content since that date)
2. How many people have downloaded the latest release versions is clearly available to DAZ. And that gives a clearer idea of how many might be using it. If you're active then you want the latest version (eg, diomede has downloaded very new version of Carrara in the last 5 years and has purchased this list of content in those years)
3. How many people download the latest beta versions. Presumably, those are some of the most active users. (eg, diomede has downloaded every single beta in the last 5 years so he's a very active user and has purchased this list of content)
4. The content purchasing details of each of those users, assuming they have an account with DAZ where the usage is tracked in detail. Just look in your own account and you can see all the fine detail about every one of your purchases. DAZ has all of that in a big database that they can sort and generate reports from that tells them whatever they want to know.
5. (And this is speculation which may not be true in Carrara's case, but definitely happens with much software out there...) If Carrara "calls home" each time it's started, or a summary is sent upon connection to the internet, giving serial number or account number or whatever, DAZ would have everything it needs to prepare an exact database, by user, which showed how often he/she uses Carrara, what his content purchases have been, what his total spending has been, etc. (eg, diomede started Carrara 20 times last week, and his list of content purchases in the last year is xxx items for a total revenue to DAZ of $YYY)
6. Forum participation. Clearly DAZ also has records of forum participation already. Just look under your user name in this forum and you know they can track usage by day. And those who are active in the Carrara forum are probably active users. Just another bit of information that goes into the mix.
Now I'm sure that the computer folks here can come up with more stuff, but if you take that, plus their internal knowledge that comes from studying their market over the past 20 years or whatever, I think it's safe to say that they know with far more certainty than many might suspect who is using Carrara and what their contribution to revenues is. When the future direction of your company is at stake, you get all the info you can to make your decisions and don't just toss a coin or listen to a small group of users.
Heck, they probably only need a ballpark estimate if in fact the Carrara user base is only a fraction of the D|S user base. If Carrara users are 10% of D|S users, do you honestly think that the revenue contribution from Carrara will be significantly more than, say, 10% of the D|S user contribution? That alone may be all they need to determine the future direction of the company.
But if you guys want to think that somehow this thread will change their minds then party on. I wish you luck.
"But if you guys want to think that somehow this thread will change their minds then party on. I wish you luck."
this what I said at the start of this thread .
but you said it much better then I ."
Thanks Renpatsu , Starboardtack and Katlady,
appreciate your responses :)
and thanks to everyone who has responded so far with their stats, there certainly is a lot of data now
as Diomede says so succinctly
cheers :)
I'm curious, has anyone here ever worked in a medium to large business and had any experience with marketing and sales and working with stuff like this? No disrepect intended, but this is really kind of basic stuff when doing business strategy planning. Honestly, as I've said before, if any company has to turn to a group of 60 or so users to tell them what their business strategy should be going forward it's a pretty sad state of affairs. I give DAZ a lot more credit than that.
But maybe this is more about proving someone wrong than figuring out what's right.
Cheers :)
Forgot to say that hopefully Daz will be given the data in a week or two, so if you have been fence sitting because of embaressment at how much money you have given Daz in the past, now's the time to reveal all :)
that's of course, if you want to give them money in the future ..... ;)
What data will they be given?
I'm just trying to imagine what you might tell them...
Something like "We had 70 people respond that they have something over 100,000 products listed in their accounts, and most use Carrara for their main software. But honestly we don't know how many of those products were actually purchased and how many were freebies. And we don't know when these purchases were made, so it may have been years ago for most of them. So we're not really sure how much they'd buy in the future if you re-started Carrara development, or how much revenue they've contributed to DAZ over the years. So really it doesn't tell you anything. Other than some people responded to my thread. Thanks !!!"
Sorry Joe, just in case you think I am being rude to you, I have you on ignore.
Whatever you are saying I am sure is in positive support of keeping Carrara a healthy software.
God Bless.
You guys put me on ignore, but peek just enough to answer me and tell me you can't answer me cuz I'm on ignore...
Right. And the reason you can't answer my question is because I'm on ignore. So you can't see my post. But you can see it enough to tell me I'm on ignore.
Okay. Got it. Maybe you learned that in your Critical Reasoning 101 class at Oxford.
Thanks.
Please note that whether this tactic is effective or not is simply rehashing what has been said. Do not get into personal attacks.
In the interest of trying to make this the most effective effort, might I suggest that we re-consider the most effective means to accomplish this.
Now, Mr. Headwax decided that the 3 questions to be asked is "1. How many pages of stuff in your product library, 2. Is Carrara your main software, and 3. Would you buy Genesis 3 if it were compatible with Carrara".
Now, are those really the best questions to ask if we want to give usable information to DAZ? Perhaps we should re-think that. As I mentioned, there are some missing bits of information that might be important.
Specifically, the number of pages of stuff in your product library doesn't really mean much. What is more important is the raw revenue numbers per year. How much did each Carrara user spend in each of the most recent years? And that info is readily available in your "Orders" list in your account. It provides the total amount of each order, and the date of the order. So if we could tell DAZ that "70 active Carrara users spent a total of $300k in 2014", then that might be more useful information.
And the question "Would you buy Genesis 3 if it were compatible" is a bit like asking "do you promise to exercise 3 times a week?". It's easy to say yes, but what a company wants is some sort of commitment or assurance, or high confidence based on other data before they invest $$. That's why some software developers ask users to "prepay" for the software at a "reduced rate", even many months before release. And some users actually fall for it...
But seriously, if users would agree to something like that, and give DAZ an assurance of future sales in the way of paid, pre-orders today, then maybe there's a higher chance they will act on Carrara. IMO, it's still very unlikely, but it's better than just some verbal assurances.
I'm merely trying to get people to consider DAZ's perspective and their needs, and maybe re-think their approach here.
Apologies once more Chris.
And FWIW, here are my answers to the questions I proposed:
Purchase totals by year:
2014: $48
2013: $130
2012: $0
2011: $24
And no, Carrara isn't my main software. And no, I won't commit to buying Genesis 3.
Okay, maybe you shouldn't mention me to DAZ...
I never use the ignore feature here and only ever had to use it once on another site where somebody kept insulting my wife. I usually just metaphorically tear those folks new symbolic sphincters, but had reasons to not react that way on that particular site.
But my point is that if ignore works the same here as it did there, they will see that you posted, but your post will appear "collapsed" and no words will show. So it's perfectly reasonable that, without peeking, they saw that you posted but did not see your post.
Don't worry, I don't ignore you! I enjoy your bold commitment to your positions even if they do sometimes refute the necessity of Cows in all aspects of 3D Art.
But just in case you were unaware of how the ignore feature works, that is likely what happened.
Of course, now that *I* quoted you, and nobody ignores me, they will be able to read the quote from your post in my post
On the other hand, I just bought an item from the store for a commission! That brings my purchase total for the the year to ONE Item!!
A whopping $12.95 - surely that is enough to justify continued Cowrarra development in the eyes of any corporate Grand High Such-And-Such, right?
I mean... That's not just any $12.95, that's $12.95 from me! Not only that, it's $12.95 worth of Yucky Human Related Content
Disgraceful, I know. But it's only for the money so surely The Millennium Cow will forgive me.
I have to agree that Diomede did state clearly what was the real purpose behind this thread, and the more subtle campaign that Bryce users have. DAZ 3D can indeed see how much money people spend, obviously. They don't however have any way of seeing what program the content purchased is used in. What they do see is that Dedicated Carrara content (and Bryce content) does not have the same volume of sales as does standard DAZ 3D content. Therefore they assume that neither group are buying much content. We need for them to understand that some users have been buying content for many years but do use Carrara (or Bryce) rather than other programs. I have been buying content at DAZ 3D since the late 1990s, have never used DAZ Studio, and only use Poser as a "plug-in" before rendering in my program of choice. I have a Gallery with more than 200 images in at at another site, and a slowly growing gallery here. and almost all the images have been rendered in that program. And almost all those images do contain imported content, most of which was purchased in the DAZ 3D store.
This is the sort of thing that we need DAZ 3D to understand.
Thank you Chohole, well put.
...but it seems that here it's your main forum !
I'm not sure where you got the data to support the statement that "....they assume that neither group (Carrara or Bryce) are buying much content". How do you know that's what DAZ is assuming?
All they need to know is whether a dollar invested in Carrara/Bryce development results in the same or more profit as the same dollar invested in D|S, or whatever venture they think will bring them big profits. It's really that simple.
They could be making $2 million in revenues for every $1 million invested in Carrara/Bryce development. Big bucks. But if the same $1 million investment in D|S or whatever other venture could bring them $3.5 million in revenues, why even bother with Carrara/Bryce?
I don't know, I could probably explain basic business strategy like this for the next year, but for some reason people want to believe what they want to believe.
There is a post that tries to lay out the cost side and the revenue side, and another post with a link to marginal thinking above, It lays out 4 of the revenue side considerations. It explains why Daz's data on ownership is insufficient, and Renpatsu has provided a clear example of that factor. I could go on explaining it, but folks would get personal and start making comparisons about my intelligence, instead of focusing why the person believes those four revenue factors are incorrecty described, or need a 5th, or some other objective point. That post includes a discussion of the possibility that to fill the niche of Carrara, Daz might be better off buying another existing 3rd party program, or investing a little more in the Studio/Hexagon/Bryce bridge. No sentmental attachment to Carrara.
1) The notion that Daz's records on Carrara ownership gives them the ability to distnguish a sale of a raccoon by the vendor AM for usage in Studio from usage in Carrara or Bryce has been blown out of the water (a) logically and (b) by someone recently posting in this thread who owns Carrara but uses Studio instead. 2) On the flip side, other people have been posting that they purchase content labeled for use in Poser or Studio, but that they don't use Poser or Studio, but instead use Carrara or Bryce. 3) Recent Daz marketing surveys have not included Carrara usage as an option.
Logically, given points 1-3, having data on Carrara ownership by person, data on sales of Carrara-dedicated store content (eg. Howie Farkes) by person, and data on sales of items labeled for use in Poser and Studio by person, is not sufficient to track sales of content by Carrara usage, as distinguished from Carrara ownershp.
Furthermore, Daz does not have to give Carrara a suite of new features just to have genesis 3 compatibility. That matters because it goes to what the marginal cost of improving Carrara is for the comparison of the data offered in this thread. Recall, the questions the OP asked are focused on compatibility of Carrara with genesis 3 - not a different modeling system, or a different shader system, or...
When all is said and done, making genesis 3 compatible with Carrara may or may not be worth it. No emotion. Nothing about what I want to be the case. Nothing about my brain being compared to anyone else's. Just cold hard logic, with links to Econ 101. The chips fall where they may. But if we don't self-report data on Carrara usage as distinct from Carrara ownership (again, thank you Renpatsu for chiming in), there is no reason to believe that their store database can track it unless the marketing surveys include Carrara usage as an option, which they don't.
Some people (myself ncluded), were introduced to computer graphics through the need to display data clearly. Thus, "photo-realism" features like SSS are not particularly important to our little corner. In general, there is no need to trick the human eye or the subconscious into thinking something is real when it is not. One of the greats in this corner of the CG world is Edward Tufte. See http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/index Maybe some of you have seen the famous Napolean March poster. http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/posters Please realize that photorealistic special effects for movies and animations are not the only professional use of CG.
I am sure that DAZ will continue to focus on the bigger markets and the development of DAZ Studio. All we are trying to say is that for a possibly relatively small investment in Carrara, they could make some more return from selling G3F figures and add-ons to Carrara users, now and into the future. Personally, I am currently ignoring any product that says it is for G3F as it will not work in my program of choice. For all I know, DAZ could be working on Carrara compatibility right now, or maybe they know that it would take an uneconomically huge investment to get compatibility. All we are trying to do is ensure they are not overlooking an opportunity, and in any medium to large organisation, that is always a real possibility.
I went for Carrara because it uses a huge range of DAZ & Poser products, along with lots of 3D object content from multiple sources, often obscure ones. One of my happiest finds was a mammoth skeleton from the Smithsonian site which has a fledgling 3D content page and free to download.
IMHO the purpose of the thread is very clear. It's so that Andy (Headwax) can collect the responses and present them to show how this NOT-insignificant sampling of Carrara owners purchase DAZ products and that they'd be inclined to use more if they were Carrara-friendly. I do not expect the DAZ marketing-heads to be hanging out and reading forum posts.
Logic follows that DAZ would have more customers if they adjusted/tweaked/re-engineered, whatever, Carrara in order to accommodate the new products. Will it be so the current release works? Will it be in Car-9 (if there is to be one) so they can sell an upgrade? What is the point of them ignoring this customer base?
We can sit around and moan about it, OR use your voice to help Andy with the survey. Customer loyalty matters. There are obviously a lot of Carrara owners who do not visit this forum. DAZ knows how many sales of Carrara software have been made over time, along with how many take the upgrades, etc, eg since Genesis became useable (that sold ME!)
Viewing Carrara software sales (even of the older versions) proportionately with the responses in this thread could be very useful in estimating future Carrara customer purchases of DAZ products. Is that a guarantee of realising the goal? Maybe, actually yes! The marketing people might see this snapshot of a survey as a broader-than-niche market to be taken seriously. If Andy had not taken the time to put out this questionnaire, we'd never know. I have been surprised at the number of pages of products that many of you own. Wow!
Another way to look at it is this: We all know opinion polls taken for political, or other issues, are simply a sampling of a population, not a full head-count. So don't write this exercise off as useless. Participate! It only takes a moment or two of your time.
As DelBoy said to his little brother... "He who dares, Rodney, he who dares!"
Thanks PhilW. As usual, you keep making excellent points succinctly. "All we are trying to say is that for a possibly relatively small investment in Carrara, they could make some more return from selling G3F figures and add-ons to Carrara users, now and into the future." Great example of thinking at the margin. And you snuck in there while I was typing, SilineUK. {Waving to say hi}
Diomede, you can continue to go on and on with stuff that honestly I can't figure out.
But the bottom line, like I said, is this: "All they need to know is whether a dollar invested in Carrara/Bryce development results in the same or more profit as the same dollar invested in D|S, or whatever venture they think will bring them big profits. It's really that simple."
All your talk of ownership vs. usage, revenue factors, margins, Genesis 3, and SSS and Edward Tufte is, unfortunately, irrelevant. And for the most part, sorry to say, incomprehensible.
The assertion of a person who does not understand is generally not a good bell weather for what is relevant.
Yes, they need to know how much a dollar invested in Carrara returns. That is marginal thinking. Excellent. But that is not the same as $3-$4 million dollars invested in Carrara to add a suite of other features. If you truly don't understand the factors that go into determining how many dollars between $1 dollar and $3-$4 million dollars go into the decision regarding genesis 3 compatibility, and don't want to try to understand, and don't want to have a rational discussion of the marginal cost factors and the marginal revenue factors, then please stop repeating yourself.
Someone hands you $1,000, and tells you the following:
"I'll give you this $1,000 but you have to choose one of two business to invest it in. For your $1,000 investment you will get a guaranteed 10% of the daily profits, every day, for 10 years
Business 1 is a small bakery that makes a profit each day that averages about $500, and it's been steady like this for 2 years. It's loyal customers just LOVE the donuts and cakes.
Business 2 is an cellphone/internet kiosk that makes a profit each day that averages about $2,000, and it's been steady like this for 3 years"
Which business do you invest in?
And instead of finding and proudly pointing out ways that the analogy isn't perfect, try to understand the concept and the point being made, okay?
Oh, and by the way....
Does a letter writing campaign by the loyal bakery customers make you change your mind?
You invest in Business 2, and after a few days, you take the profits that you have made from that and invest that in Business 1 - that way you maximise your profits and spread your risk.
SileneUk, diomede, Dudu et PhilW, I am honoured to be a member of the same forum as yourselves.