Firearms poses (and minor rant) Updated 2016/8/16

Esemwy

Update:

In honor of the recent release of Trigger Happy Poses for Genesis 2 and Genesis 3 Male(s) and Female(s), I have added metadata and created a DIM package. The partial poses are compatible with G2F, G2M, G3F and G3M.

*see related discussion here.

Original Post:

If you want to skip the rant, feel free to go straight to the URL.

https://github.com/esemwy/BHOBS

If you want to know what you're looking at, read on.

BHOBS stands for Booger Hook Off the Bang Switch.

As a person who knows a bit about firearms in the real world, it really bothers me that all the poses I find have fingers on the trigger even when the character is obviously not firing the weapon. Real shooters never do this! It creates a situation begging for a negligent discharge.

I've always straightened the index finger and placed it along the frame of the weapon, but I finally got around to creating a partial pose for right and left hand shooters that places the index finger along the frame of the weapon for proper firearm safety.

I've only really tested it with Pistol and Poses for Michael 6 and Victoria 6 (https://www.daz3d.com/pistol-and-poses-for-m6-and-v6), but it should work properly with any basic pistol or rifle with a pistol grip.

Use it any way you like including repackaging for commercial distribution, but give credit where it's due.

Thanks for listening to my rant. Just place the files in your Presets/Poses directory, or anywhere else you think is appropriate.

robkelk

Esemwy said:

If you want to skip the rant, feel free to go straight to the URL.

https://github.com/esemwy/BHOBS

If you want to know what you're looking at, read on.

BHOBS stands for Booger Hook Off the Bang Switch.

As a person who knows a bit about firearms in the real world, it really bothers me that all the poses I find have fingers on the trigger even when the character is obviously not firing the weapon. Real shooters never do this! It creates a situation begging for a negligent discharge.

I've always straightened the index finger and placed it along the frame of the weapon, but I finally got around to creating a partial pose for right and left hand shooters that places the index finger along the frame of the weapon for proper firearm safety.

I've only really tested it with Pistol and Poses for Michael 6 and Victoria 6 (https://www.daz3d.com/pistol-and-poses-for-m6-and-v6), but it should work properly with any basic pistol or rifle with a pistol grip.

Use it any way you like including repackaging for commercial distribution, but give credit where it's due.

Thanks for listening to my rant. Just place the files in your Presets/Poses directory, or anywhere else you think is appropriate.

If your rant saves even one life, it will have been worthwhile.

Thanks for the poses!

Rbug

Being ex military myself I did the same thing.....And have not had one accidental pixel shooting ever... Thanks for the share

WendyLuvsCatz

I do not see many poses for carrying any sort of weapons actualy, all are active use be it guns/rifles , crossbows, whatever
not even a staff slung over a shoulder.
It is an area more could cater for, animations too.

SixDs

There are more than a few archery poses out there that were obviously done by people who know little about archery, as well (or bothered to do a little research). Like placing the arrow on the wrong side of the bow as one good example. Or wrapping fingers around the shaft of the arrow at the hand grip (ouch!).

Eustace Scrubb

YES! Thank you for giving us some shooters' firearms grips! And I'm going to have to steal that "BHOBS" acronym! ;)

scatha

SixDs said:

There are more than a few archery poses out there that were obviously done by people who know little about archery, as well (or bothered to do a little research). Like placing the arrow on the wrong side of the bow as one good example. Or wrapping fingers around the shaft of the arrow at the hand grip (ouch!).

Not to mention not lining the bow with your line of sight... the lack of good archery poses has always annoyed me.

Same goes for most weapon poses, as apparently people create them only having movies as a reference and no real life experience with these. Others have to compromise because rifle poses are hard to get right due to figure limits... go figure *sigh*

Tramp Graphics

SixDs said:

There are more than a few archery poses out there that were obviously done by people who know little about archery, as well (or bothered to do a little research). Like placing the arrow on the wrong side of the bow as one good example. Or wrapping fingers around the shaft of the arrow at the hand grip (ouch!).

This is so true. One caveat to that, however, is when people are showing Japanese style archery with a Yumi (Japanese bow), which does put the arrow on the "thumb side" of the bow. This is one time where putting the arrow on the "wrong" side is correct.

Slosh

I'm not hoping to start any verbal battles, but as a content creator I need to say something. This very thread is one of the reasons you don't see more real world clothing and weapons, etc. Because as we create content, we don't necessarily know all the ins and outs of accurate real world stuff. For example, I know nothing of archery, and even if I research the heck out of it, there are going to be intricacies of the activity that I will not know about. So, when I make a bow, or make archery poses, I won't necessarily get it 100% right. Maybe not even 80% right. Does that mean I should not bother making the bow or the poses? I think "no", but when we create content we have to think, "Hmm, how much verbal beating am I going to get about how accurate this is?" because there is ALWAYS someone out there who is going to find fault in our product. It's unavoidable. We just have to decide if it's worth proceeding with the project or not. Unfortunately, sometimes the decision is, "I can't do this accurately enough to avoid the criticism," and ultimately the item does not get made.

I understand the importance of seeing something done accurately, especially to a person who has a special interest in the theme or activity being represented. But, to address an irritation by getting upset helps nothing and makes the artist question whether or not to make such content again in the future. Perhaps presenting the inaccuracy in a more helpful way, rather than critically, will result in more real world products being put out there.

Part of our hobby here is suspending disbelief and creating things that are not necessarily realistic... and I'm not talking about this particular issue. A finger on a trigger is definitely not a matter of suspending disbelief, so this is a new topic... But let's say someone makes a superhero costume... first of all, not reality at all, ok? And that superhero costume doesn't have a zipper or other way to put the costume on. Does it really matter? If you are going for total realism, sure it matters. But most of us are not that concerned with some of those details. Should it have a neck-hole and two arms and two legs? Of course, if it's for a human/biped. But a zipper is not necessarily a 'must-have'.

I don't know where this long winded rant of mine came from. I only intended to make a short comment, but I guess I got on a roll (and now I know how the OP felt). And this reply that I made is certainly going to have people who completely disagree with me, but the point I'm trying to make is this: if it is important to have everything the vendors make to be 100% accurate, then a lot less real world content will be made. Try to cut a little slack, if you will, and we will appreciate it. Again, this part is not about the trigger finger. I actually agree with the OP on that one... it's a simple detail that doesn't require extensive knowledge of gun handling to get it right. Maybe the pose artist could provide both positions for the trigger finger? Since sometimes we DO want it ready to pull that trigger?

FirstBastion

SixDs said:

There are more than a few archery poses out there that were obviously done by people who know little about archery, as well (or bothered to do a little research). Like placing the arrow on the wrong side of the bow as one good example. Or wrapping fingers around the shaft of the arrow at the hand grip (ouch!).

That bothered me too, so the only solution I could think of was, go out and make it.

http://www.daz3d.com/classic-recurve-bow-smart-prop-and-poses

Might do it for a pistol and rifle one day. And a pump action shotgun too.

SixDs

Part of our hobby here is suspending disbelief

I agree with you completely, Slosh. However, it is the suspension of disbelief, which implies that the work must overcome the tendency for people to disbelieve, and that requires some effort. To create a plausible scenario composed of credible elements is a prerequisite. It is not that there cannot be elements that are fantastical, but those elements must be presented in a manner that facilitates the suspension of disbelief in order to be effective. Even small details can make the difference, and ruin the goal. There must be conscious decisions made by the creator regarding what elements of fantasy should be included and how. Mistakes or errors don't qualify. If the work assumes that if it is fantasy or science fiction, anything goes, I would suggest that this is not true in this day and age, unless you are going for comedy.

However, in the end, it is a entirely a matter of opinion, I suppose. This is not intended to be a personal attack on anyone, and I mean no offense. It was intended as the elusive "constructive criticism".

BTW, insofar as researching the subject, I expect that even posing the pertinent questions here on the forums would go a long way towards this end. There tends to be a pretty diverse bunch of folks around here, I think.

SixDs

Japanese style archery with a Yumi

That's an excellent example, Tramp. Let us say I wished to do a render of a Japanese archer drawing a bow as they were flying through the air from a treetop ala Crouching Tiger et al. The effectiveness of the result would depend heavily on the suspension of disbelief. However, before constructing the scene I would be compelled to do a little research into the use of the Yumi (with which I am only vaguely familiar, BTW), since both the equipment and techniques are so different from traditional or current western archery. I would want to get that right to avoid ruining the suspension of disbelief for those that may be familiar with Japanese archery, even if in passing. I am already asking a lot when it comes to flying through the treetops. I must only ask for the suspension of one disbelief at a time in order to succeed.

BTW, someone should do a render like that! :) Picture an archer being fired from a treetop as they in turn are preparing to fire an arrow. I'd buy that, figuratively speaking, if done correctly.

Tramp Graphics

FirstBastion said:

SixDs said:

There are more than a few archery poses out there that were obviously done by people who know little about archery, as well (or bothered to do a little research). Like placing the arrow on the wrong side of the bow as one good example. Or wrapping fingers around the shaft of the arrow at the hand grip (ouch!).

That bothered me too, so the only solution I could think of was, go out and make it.

http://www.daz3d.com/classic-recurve-bow-smart-prop-and-poses

Might do it for a pistol and rifle one day. And a pump action shotgun too.
That is a very nice set Bastion. I do have one "slight" problem with it though. It assumes all archers are right handed. What about us Southpaws?

scatha

Slosh said:

I'm not hoping to start any verbal battles, but as a content creator I need to say something. This very thread is one of the reasons you don't see more real world clothing and weapons, etc. Because as we create content, we don't necessarily know all the ins and outs of accurate real world stuff.... Does that mean I should not bother making the bow or the poses?

Slosh, allow me to clarify.

No, this should not prevent you from making the product. But for things such as the poses you can ask your testers or ask on the forum.
Having handled a variety of weapons in my day (swords, machete's, knives, guns, rifles and bows), I'm more then willing to help, as would many others I'm sure.

FB's set he just posted the link of is quite good, but I hope it has mirrored poses too.... not everyone is right-handed and with many bows there's an item missing. Easily solved though, but every archer has an arm protector to keep the bowstring from slashing the inside of the forearm holding the bow. Generally this is leather and many have two or more reinforced parts with a metal strip inside. (Sorry FB, had to point this out.)

There's the kicker, you cannot always think of everything, so don't let it refrain you from making the product.

Esemwy

I didn't mean to create a controversy here. I saw a problem, pointed it out without criticizing any individuals, and presented a solution. I'm sorry if the way I said it caused offense to anyone.

I agree, much of what we do here is fantasy, but suspension of disbelief is a fragile thing. That was really my only point.

@Slosh: I never meant to imply that all the poses were wrong. I agree that it would be great if there were on-trigger/off-trigger options. That was my point in creating this and allowing for commercial redistribution (presumably renaming the poses).

StratDragon

Real shooters never do this but unfortunately plenty of amateurs do, you may also consider you have a character in a life/death situation and all bets are off about what they know or don't. Regardless of it being a good practice that saves you from blowing off a limb (or far worse) the natural reflex of many people when they pick up a gun is to wrap their index finger around the trigger, yes it's an unbelievably bad idea but some people do it without thinking. I tend to loose it more when they have someone "playing" guitar in a movie and their hands are clearly not producing the melody that accompanies the scene (or worse yet, it's not even a guitar I hear) but there is the point that needs to get across, art is not always simply a reflection of real life, it's an extension and often an emotional one. Someone holding a gun in a scene vs. someone with their finger on the trigger in going to produce a much stronger reactions from the viewer - again bad practice in real life, no argument from me.
What we need is two sets of poses for the hand labeled "I took the safety course" and "I just watched Rambo!", and more lefty poses! there I said it!

Thanks for listening to my rant. Just place the files in your Presets/Poses directory, or anywhere else you think is appropriate.

Actually I enjoyed it, it was enlightened. Great avatar btw.

Esemwy

@StratDragon: Agreed. Amateurs do this and more. I've been toying with the idea of "real world" firearm poses, including "gangsta" style poses which are notoriously incorrect, but used in the real world fairly often.

Esemwy

FirstBastion said:

SixDs said:

There are more than a few archery poses out there that were obviously done by people who know little about archery, as well (or bothered to do a little research). Like placing the arrow on the wrong side of the bow as one good example. Or wrapping fingers around the shaft of the arrow at the hand grip (ouch!).

That bothered me too, so the only solution I could think of was, go out and make it.

http://www.daz3d.com/classic-recurve-bow-smart-prop-and-poses

Might do it for a pistol and rifle one day. And a pump action shotgun too.

That's the bow I've been looking for! The poses are perfect too. How did I manage to miss it?

thistledownsname

Something I've found lacking in firearm poses - reloading. I can see a pack just for reloading guns clips and magazines. And don't forget revolvers!

StratDragon

Esemwy said:

@StratDragon: Agreed. Amateurs do this and more. I've been toying with the idea of "real world" firearm poses, including "gangsta" style poses which are notoriously incorrect, but used in the real world fairly often.

also finger on the trigger, head in the other direction with eyes shut and shoulders shrugged to "absorb" the report. Thats a good pose, I think I've seen it in several movies on the Lifetime channel.

Set looks really good, I'm DLing now.

Esemwy

StratDragon said:

Esemwy said:

@StratDragon: Agreed. Amateurs do this and more. I've been toying with the idea of "real world" firearm poses, including "gangsta" style poses which are notoriously incorrect, but used in the real world fairly often.

also finger on the trigger, head in the other direction with eyes shut and shoulders shrugged to "absorb" the report. Thats a good pose, I think I've seen it in several movies on the Lifetime channel.

Set looks really good, I'm DLing now.
LOL!

OK, I'm officially keeping track of suggestions. I don't do this for a living, so I'm not promising anything, but suggestions of "real life" poses, whether good or bad practice are welcome.

So far:
- Gangsta'
- Flinching
- Reloading

I think we need to target a posable prop so I can do racking the slide, absorbing recoil, etc. I think there's a good Glock 19 clone by Motokamishii on Rendo, but I haven't tried it. I haven't found one in the DAZ store yet. If anyone has suggestions, speak up!

StratDragon

this image should be public domain at this point.

this other one, it's really a public service.

The Blurst of Times

Esemwy said:

I think we need to target a posable prop so I can do racking the slide, absorbing recoil, etc. I think there's a good Glock 19 clone by Motokamishii on Rendo, but I haven't tried it. I haven't found one in the DAZ store yet. If anyone has suggestions, speak up!

Ok... kind of necromancy, but I came across this and remembered this thread.

This one is a Colt M1911. So it's a gun that almost everyone likes. I've seen other freebies that are functional, but not a Colt like this.
And it says "Fully Rigged". I don't know what that means as I haven't actually tried it out, however.

http://tf3dm.com/download-page.php?url=m1911-fully-rigged-3728

There's other "fully rigged" guns on there as well (I noticed a H&K MP5K), but you all were talking about pistols, so I linked to the M1911.

(A lot of the guns on there seem like rips from video games, though. I doubt they do much.)

Tramp Graphics

The Blurst of Times said:

Esemwy said:

I think we need to target a posable prop so I can do racking the slide, absorbing recoil, etc. I think there's a good Glock 19 clone by Motokamishii on Rendo, but I haven't tried it. I haven't found one in the DAZ store yet. If anyone has suggestions, speak up!

Ok... kind of necromancy, but I came across this and remembered this thread.

This one is a Colt M1911. So it's a gun that almost everyone likes. I've seen other freebies that are functional, but not a Colt like this.
And it says "Fully Rigged". I don't know what that means as I haven't actually tried it out, however.

http://tf3dm.com/download-page.php?url=m1911-fully-rigged-3728

There's other "fully rigged" guns on there as well (I noticed a H&K MP5K), but you all were talking about pistols, so I linked to the M1911.

(A lot of the guns on there seem like rips from video games, though. I doubt they do much.)Theonl real problem with that model being "full rigged is that the rigging is only good in those specified programs; the rigging is lost if brought into DAZ Studio or Poser. The .obj file is just that, an object, no rigging.

The Blurst of Times

Got it.

Well, there's also a FBX file for the M1911, which appears to be more useful since all the parts are separate after I imported it.

I did this render very quickly, didn't apply any textures, although I put NVidia brushed metal Iray shaders on everything. The little lock thing for the slide doesn't go up and lock the slide in place, but the slide does go back on this one. The trigger, hammer, and magazine are also separate parts.

I'll check out the MP5K later.

The Blurst of Times

Here's the MP5K... it just needs an orange tip!

Otherwise, I simply added colors to the different pieces of this model.

I also grabbed a M9 model, which came all in pieces. I just added the texture that came with it, slammed the parts together, and there it is.

They are a bit rough to work with, but at least the FBK things import as pieces.

Mjvol

Slosh said:

I'm not hoping to start any verbal battles, but as a content creator I need to say something. This very thread is one of the reasons you don't see more real world clothing and weapons, etc. Because as we create content, we don't necessarily know all the ins and outs of accurate real world stuff. For example, I know nothing of archery, and even if I research the heck out of it, there are going to be intricacies of the activity that I will not know about. So, when I make a bow, or make archery poses, I won't necessarily get it 100% right. Maybe not even 80% right. Does that mean I should not bother making the bow or the poses? I think "no", but when we create content we have to think, "Hmm, how much verbal beating am I going to get about how accurate this is?" because there is ALWAYS someone out there who is going to find fault in our product. It's unavoidable. We just have to decide if it's worth proceeding with the project or not. Unfortunately, sometimes the decision is, "I can't do this accurately enough to avoid the criticism," and ultimately the item does not get made.

I understand the importance of seeing something done accurately, especially to a person who has a special interest in the theme or activity being represented. But, to address an irritation by getting upset helps nothing and makes the artist question whether or not to make such content again in the future. Perhaps presenting the inaccuracy in a more helpful way, rather than critically, will result in more real world products being put out there.

Part of our hobby here is suspending disbelief and creating things that are not necessarily realistic... and I'm not talking about this particular issue. A finger on a trigger is definitely not a matter of suspending disbelief, so this is a new topic... But let's say someone makes a superhero costume... first of all, not reality at all, ok? And that superhero costume doesn't have a zipper or other way to put the costume on. Does it really matter? If you are going for total realism, sure it matters. But most of us are not that concerned with some of those details. Should it have a neck-hole and two arms and two legs? Of course, if it's for a human/biped. But a zipper is not necessarily a 'must-have'.

I don't know where this long winded rant of mine came from. I only intended to make a short comment, but I guess I got on a roll (and now I know how the OP felt). And this reply that I made is certainly going to have people who completely disagree with me, but the point I'm trying to make is this: if it is important to have everything the vendors make to be 100% accurate, then a lot less real world content will be made. Try to cut a little slack, if you will, and we will appreciate it. Again, this part is not about the trigger finger. I actually agree with the OP on that one... it's a simple detail that doesn't require extensive knowledge of gun handling to get it right. Maybe the pose artist could provide both positions for the trigger finger? Since sometimes we DO want it ready to pull that trigger?

Hello Slosh , I have a understanding now more then ever that it is not easy to do 3d stuff, and put it all together , I have played around with gun for hunting, archer also, be honest with you , Im just happy to have content, and like I understand now , how hard it to do. So all is good with me if you don't get it right. If you can creat stuff and it come out 60 to 80 percent accurate its all good. Thumbs up for doing what you do. take care Slosh