Everything to do with Lighting in Bryce 7.1
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I think I know exactly what has happened here, post me the file and I will fix it for you - and in the process I will explain. It is easier if I show you with your own file.
Looks like I solved it myself, all I needed to do was place a blob next to where you adjust the ambient and the color showed up, I'd show you a picture but I just started the render so you'll have to wait until tomorrow afternoon :)
I think it's last one for a while form the series of my tests:
'Custom shaped TA light'
The Boolean union of 2 startips with material:
- glass
- IOR 1.6
- 5-10% light coloured diffuse
- volume colour: pale orange
- cast/receive shadows off for speedup
- TA, boost light, blurry transmissions and TIR are turned on
- non TA (standard) radial light inside the object (at the bottom part)
- shadows for this light are off and only the object is included
Now time to make a nice glossy table lamp :D
As promised, here is the capsules render as it should have been.
Thanks LordHardDriven
For the info about MeshLab. I downloaded it and have given it a try.
In Bryce; I've been getting a lot of 'Out of Memory' issues and the weird thing about this is that it's random and the file size is small...
(1) the same .br7 file is no more than 35,000.kb, sometimes Bryce will render fast and save it with no issues, other times I get that dreaded out of memory when I load that same file and then it will not save.
(2) When I read the task manager it says that I'm using 1.6 Gig of memory... that seems far fetched for a br7 file size of only 35,000.kb, could this be an error or some sort or a memory leak?
Anyway, I get crashes rending in DS4 and decided to work with Bryce but now that too is starting to become a frustrating experience.
Overall; both software (DS4 and Bryce.7) I suspect there are still a few serious bug/issues that need to be resolved. I hope the devs can explain the above and the reasons for these consistent 'out of memory' issues for files that are not that large.
I know of another software that has Memory Leak issues, this is a serious problem, this is difficult to resolve and it's impossible to find a workaround since all attempts to optimize file sizes would be a futile task.
It now appears that no matter how much I optimize my scenes to lower the file size I will get that 'Out of Memory' error in Bryce, and in DS4 it simply crashes then closes automatically.
To confirm it's not a computer hardware related issue; I use other software that host multiple instances of plugins and can handle really large projects with no issues at all. If there was any issues with my hardware I would definitely know about it. Being that my PC can only access 2.gig ram is the only con but that should not prevent my system from handling projects that are only 35,000.kb
My specs;
Antec Sonata 3 case and silent PSU, Abit IP35 Pro MB, Quad Core 3.5 CPU. 2.Gig Ram, WinXP 32bit O/S. Dedicated OGL graphic card, 3 hard drives. This PC was custom built a few years ago by professionals with over 25 years of experience with custom builds specifically for pro audio and video. Their reputation is flawless.
The file size is no reliable indication of the size of the scene because it is compressed. It depends how good the scene can be compressed. Saving a scene is also done in memory. Even if the scene can still be held in memory, the moment it is saved it is first compressed, using yet more memory before it is actually written to disk.
Then there is the undo-buffer, that never empties. Wotking a lot on a scene, moving an object, changing material, resizing, ..., fills the undo-buffer because you can undo changes with ctrl+z many times. The only remedy is saving the scene, quit Bryce, start it again and load the scene. This will empty the buffer.
If the task manager approaches 1.5 to 1.6 GB memory usage, save the scene after each change and give the file a new name (myfile01, myfile02, ...) so even if Bryce crashes when memory is exhausted, you can still go back, otherwise, your work is destroyed.
If you use HDRI, always use the smallest available. The backdrop looks lousy in the low resolution but the light it generates is the same as it is for a hi-res HDRI. This way, you can build up more elaborate scenes and save them. Once everything is fine, exchange the low-res HDRI with the hi-res one and render. Save the rendered picture. Only then try to save the scene with a new name. If Bryce crashes then, you still have the scene with the low-res HDRI and a rendered image with the hi-res one.
Your computer has 2 GB of memory. Look at the task manager after you started Bryce with the default scene. This one takes around 36 MB. Note the memory usage the task manager indicates. Then you know how much you have available for your scene to grow.
Bryce is - unfortunately - still a 32-bit application and has the 2 GB limit hard coded. If your machine has at least 4 GB of memory, you can use the free LAA tool to make Bryce large address aware. Bryce can then use up to about 3.2 GB until it crashes on memory exhaution.
@ Horo Thanks for the suggestions/tips
In one case I had freshly booted up and of course wait till all systems have been initialized.
This is an example of my workflow and I've been doing for a long time.....
> Open Bryce (default scene) nothing changed.
> Save as; z-template-figure-1
and then for example;
. Import Genesis (default) exported as low res
. whilst it's loading I get; Out of Memory. (error) and weirdly... this error does not happen all the time.
The above is just one of many Out-Of-Memory scenarios. That file saved OK but without Genesis.
Close Bryce, run CClean and then locate file from explorer and open from there;
. it opens and then I repeat above; import Genesis, it loads with no issues at all, all materials are also loaded.
. Save as; -2
.. Adjust a few material items
. Save as; -3
. Render
. Save as; -4
. Add to library
Save as; -5
The above is an example of my usual workflow and has been that way since version 5, also having to delete a lot of wasted files but of course keep one and one other (duplicate) as a backup copy. Run CClean and I'm ready to begin the next task and so on and so forth, hopefully by the 2050 I should have all those scenes done LOL!!
There seems to be a random error and what I suspect could be a memory leak or some other issue going on with Bryce. Been using Bryce for a long time since it was developed by; Metacreations.
I don't know if it's the implementation of the bridge that may have broken the coding which is causing the errors. Of course that is a speculation on my part.
What I would like to see in future development of Bryce is;
#1 Optimize For Overall Improved Performance and stability (always at the top of the wishlist lol)!
#2 Along with optimizations; option to assign libraries and such to another additional h/drive(s) DMA mode. This is done in other software(s) to improve overall performance.
#3 New Character Library; tailored to Bryce using lower mesh (optimized) versions of Victoria, Michael and/or just Genesis. Include direct freehand shape and pose along with options to include and add presets.
#4 Include new materials to compliment character library. In fact all textures need not be any larger than (512x512p) / ( 300dpi) / (.jpg format) ~ see later explanation at the end of this post.
#5 Redesign UI to maximize the workspace but keep overall original UI layout the same.
#6 Add Soundtrack or Voice Over (.wav file format. Reads from another H/Drive. DMA mode)
#7 Make the bridge an option during install.
#8 Include default document preset (option) on load, suitable for HD formats such as (1920x1080p) / (16:9) / (300dpi) According to my distributor (and others); these are the 'must have' requirements and anything less will not be accepted.
.
Sounds like your problem is mostly your system. You only have 2GB to start with, and a dedicated graphics card. Do you know that a dedicated graphics card means it's built into the motherboard and therefore the memory it uses comes from the system memory? In other words, and just to make it easy, lets say your video card is 1GB well if you only have 2GB's of memory installed then you really only have 1GB of memory to work with for everything else. Now there is also the fact that you operating system uses memory and if you're like most people you have other apps in the back ground using up memory.
Now on a system with more then 4GB's of available memory, out of the box with no adjustments Bryce can only make use of 2GB's max. However if you have 4 or more gigabytes of memory to use then you can make Bryce what they call Large Address Aware with the help of a small free utility called Large Address Aware. With that Bryce can be made to see and use almost 4 GB's of memory and that will solve most people's memory issues.
Another thing though is how you make a scene, now 35,000kb doesn't seem like much especially when you have gigabytes worth of memory. However 35MB (35,000kb) is actually a somewhat big size for a model. You can't look at it like "Well I got 2GB and if you subtract 35MB I still 2GB-35MB", though because like I said, some memory goes for the OS, some for your video card, some for background programs, some for bryce, some for that model, if you're importing from Studio then some for studio, some for any texture applied to that object, some for any other object in the scene, etc. Now what I mean by how you make a scene is alot of people have a tendency to think of the 3D world alot like the real world. So when they make a scene they may be inclined for example to dress a figure like a real person dresses, meaning they might put on underwear for a figure wearing pants or some other clothing that completely covers the underwear. Since a figure isn't real though there is no need to do that. You just put the pants or other clothing on and pretend that there is underwear on beneath the pants or other clothing. Same thing for a set or scene. Some may construct a whole room with four walls a floor and a ceiling to create a room scene when really all you need is 2 walls and a floor. Now lets say the room is a kitchen and your scene just focuses on the side of the room with the kitchen sink. Most kitchens have the refrigerator and stove on the opposite side. So if you're making a scene that focuses on the kitchen sink you don't have to add a stove and refridgerator on the other side since they're not visible in the scene.
Enough of all that though because the solutions to your problems aren't careful construction of your scene or reducing the size of models before you import them. Those things probably help you a little but in the end you're still likely to have problems. Your best bet would be to increase your memory. Your motherboard can handle up to 8GB's of memory. Also it can handle several different speeds of memory. Hopefully you 2GB's of memory are in the form of 2 x 1GB memory sticks. If so then you have two free slots in which you could put 2 x 2GB memory sticks for a total of 6GB's. If you did that and made Bryce Large Address Aware that would do more to solve your problems then trying to reduce mesh sizes. Since you gave me the model number I took advantage of that to look it up on a site for the makers of crucial memory (one of the better memory brands) and 2 x 2GB memory sticks there costs only $57.99 (USD)
They have a faster speed your system can handle but it's a bit more at $89.99 (USD) but if you plan on keeping the 2GB's you have in, then any additional memory would need to match that speed.Thanks for your reply,
My sincere apologies; don't know why I said 'Dedicated Graphics Card' this is a mistake, I have a silent graphics card 258MB and is definitely OGL and whatever, it's a fairly decent card (not the greatest but should be adequate)!
As I already said earlier in my post;
I'm fully aware of the weakest links in my system but thanks for your suggestions. :)
I would also like to mention;
I clearly remember running much, much earlier versions of Bryce on a system with onboard graphics, cheap CPU and only 256MB of ram and did not get the Out of Memory (error) as I am having now with Bryce7 on a professionally built PC designed specifically for pro audio/video work. Although I limited that (not them) to 2gig due to choice of O/S at the time and due to focus on other work that did not require the use of 3D graphic software such as; Bryce, Poser, Blender and such.
A few years ago I had Bryce 5.5 installed on an old PC (IBM) with only 500MB of ram and it definitely had a dedicated graphics card. I did not get an 'Out of Memory' error.
Anyway, got to go, very busy!
@Sara16 - I have no more suggestions than those stated above. I have also used 5.5 on a 500 MB system and never hit the memory limit. But then, I hardly used any models from Studio. And Bryce 5.5 did not compress the file for saving. That came only with 6.0.
OK I'm back after a mad sudden rush.
Thanks for all the suggestions. greatly appreciate your help :)
Attached are earlier versions (examples) of 2 scenes I've been working on. (though not the ones I was talking about earlier)!
Thereby clearly demonstrates that 'sometimes' I can work with much larger files with NO issues at all either with Br5.5 or Br7 but as I said; 'occasionally' I get that 'out-of-memory' error.
That is the point I'm trying to explain in my original post = It's a Random Error. And as always I clear the memory, clean up temp files (cclean) so basically I always start fresh before I work on a scene.
I'm aware that upping the RAM would certainly be nice but that does not guarantee that this will resolve the random Out of Memory error. The attached scenes are proof that it can be done = occasionally
To conclude;
IMO this is obviously an 'Error' that rears it's head 'occasionally'. PC specs are more than adequate enough to handle the task. You see in that interior scene there are 4 Genesis characters each weighing in at about 28,000 kb
One last thing or two I might try....
Defrag my hard drives and shifting the files (scenes) to the main C drive; (programs), it's quite possible (although weird) that Bryce might handle better if the files are located on the same drive where all programs are installed.
Oh and one other thing; my newest (3rd hard drive) is formatted at 64k block size specifically for audio production (works best) and that drive does not require defragging but this format could be what's causing issues with both Bryce and DS4, as said; I will move the br and ds files to the main C drive and see how that goes.
My next question is this;
Which of all the base (default characters) in DS4 uses the least amount of memory?
This is in regards to importing at least 3 characters into Bryce and since it's easy enough to dress them (using primitives in Bryce as shown in that statue; Skirt/Dress) thereby I don't really need to worry about clothing materials from DS4 but occasionally I might throw a jacket on them, hey I don't want them catching a cold LOL!
I'm fully aware of the weakest links in my system but thanks for your suggestions. :)
I would also like to mention;
I clearly remember running much, much earlier versions of Bryce on a system with onboard graphics, cheap CPU and only 256MB of ram and did not get the Out of Memory (error) as I am having now with Bryce7 on a professionally built PC designed specifically for pro audio/video work. Although I limited that (not them) to 2gig due to choice of O/S at the time and due to focus on other work that did not require the use of 3D graphic software such as; Bryce, Poser, Blender and such.
A few years ago I had Bryce 5.5 installed on an old PC (IBM) with only 500MB of ram and it definitely had a dedicated graphics card. I did not get an 'Out of Memory' error.
Anyway, got to go, very busy!
Okay well since the graphics card is seperate that's obviously not taking up memory but that still doesn't mean you have the two full gigabytes of memory available. The operating system uses some, Bryce itself uses some, if you're like most you run a virus program that uses some, and so forth and so on. Basically every little thing that sits down in your task bar (bottom right corner of windows) uses some of the 2 GB's you have. So the bottomline is although you have 2GB's of memory in your computer, you don't have 2GB's available to be used by Bryce. Also, and no disrespect meant to your computer or the builders of it but at the rate of advancement of technology your system while built professionally for professional use is not up to date. The trend among users these days is not to fuss over memory because memory is dirt cheap. I remember paying more then twice for one Gigabyte of memory several years ago, then the price for the 4GB's I quoted you earlier. So most serious graphic artists have at least 8GB's if not more. No what people seem to worry about more these days is how many cores their CPU has, yours is likely one or two cores at most but the latest CPU's are coming out with 8 cores which is like having 8 CPU's in one. Since that's the nature of the users out there to have these state of the art machines unfortunately the vendors cater to and take advantage of that. Which is great for the people that have these types of muscle machines but not so great for folks like you and me. Both me and my wife are disabled and living on a very small fixed disability income. So as much as I wish I had an 8 core machine with all the latest bells and whistles owning one is out of the question unless someone decides to give me a very generous gift. Even though computers today are usually much cheaper then when the computers we have were brand new.
Now I noticed you're working with Genesis and you say DS4. I've yet to try DS4 even though I've had the pro version for about a year now. From see other comments though I do know there were problems with DS4 importing things and alot of times it depended on the texture applied when it was problem with Genesis, or for Generation 4 figures for that matter. I myself have had issues with any of the elite textures so I've used mostly Generation 3 figures and textures and those give me no problems what so ever. Now as I understand it, alot of the errors associated with the bridge and DS4 were fixed with DS4.5 so if you don't have 4.5 then upgrading to that (4.5 is free as far as I know) might solve your problem. Another issue and this is why you had no problems back in the 5.0 days but do now. The figures back then were lower resolution and the textures were as well. Nowadays with most everyone into graphic art having a minimum of 4 GB's and usually more like 8GB they started making the textures much bigger. For example, a basic Victoria 3 texture was/is 1463 x 1950 where as a standard v4 texture is 2048 x 2048 and a V4 Elite texture is 4000 x 4000. So while visually they don't seem that much different the newer figures use up a significantly higher amount of memory loading the textures. So one way around this, and there are threads in this forum by Rashad Carter that cover how to do this indepth, is to import just the figure without textures, copy the textures you want to use to somewhere else so as to not change the originals and then reduce the textures to a more reasonable resolution. Unless you're doing an extreme close up things should look pretty much the same so long as you don't reduce the texture size too low.
You seem a bit defensive of my suggestions and if so I apologize, I don't mean to offend you or put you on the defensive. I'm just trying to suggest things I've done myself to deal with these sorts of things. I never had less then 4GB's on my computer (not counting back in the day when that was unheard of) but I did have problems when bryce was only able to access a max of 2 gigs. So I followed the advice of folks like Horo and made Bryce Large Address Aware and that did help alot. I still can't work with those big textures over the bridge and not have problems but alot of my other odd random crashes stopped happening.
This is a very interesting result! This material almost behaves like an SSS.
Okay well I've managed to get another one of David's fine tutorials under my belt, this time it was the simple lake scene and below is my result. Now I wasn't able to do the best I could since just like one of the previous tutorials I had to go with a low resolution version of the same HDRI as my only choice since I don't own HDRI pack one. I'm so glad Horo included these with Bryce though so I can follow along fairly close. If you start using some of the ones he's created after Bryce though I'll be in trouble. It's not too bad though, between the low resolution and the glare from the sun it gives the background kind of a DOF effect.
One other comment, I as well as others have somewhat complained about how hard it can be to follow your tutorials David. I'm finding now though that as I do more of them and get more used to your voice and how you do things, I'm able to follow along easier. So based on that I say just keep doing things they way you're doing them and like me hopefully others will acclimate themselves to your ways in time.
@ LordHardDriven
hahahaha no I'm not like most.
Seriously as I have already said; my system was custom built a few years ago by professionals with over 25 years experience specifically in pro audio and video post production (see further explanation in my earlier posts)!
No I definitely do not have Anti-Virus and Firewalls and such running in the background. My studio DAW is specifically fine tuned and optimized to perfection and is regularly well maintained. It very rarely connects to the Internet and all incoming file transfers are scanned (anti-virus) prior to from another system which I use primarily for the Internet (that has updated Anti-Virus and such). All software updates and third party plugin activations are the only exception but that process is very quick and direct although if possible activations can be transferred to my offline DAW and again all files are scanned prior to transfer.
So as you can see I run a very tight ship lol!!
Like I said; my studio DAW spec is; Quad Core 3.5 with 2 Gig of Ram + decent separate video card, runs super quiet and rock solid in all other programs, the only issues are with Bryce and DS4. That said; I'm not going to waste money by upgrading an already more than adequate system.
However as XP support is on it's way out (I think by 2014?) and upgrades to newer software will no longer support XP is when I will upgrade both the O/S and Ram. (I'm saving up for that now LOL!) but at this point in time I am definitely not going to spend a penny.
Sorry, don't mean to sound harsh but that's my opinion and conclusion with consideration to my fairly tight budget. So anyway... I will just have to put up with the 'occasional' out-of-memory error in Bryce. It's not such a big thing to cry about and I'm certainly not going to throw myself over the bridge LOL!
Just today, I loaded up the same file (scene) with all four Genesis imported from DS4 and guess what?, not one glitch, it all worked fine, no sluggish behavior, not a problem at all. However, tomorrow that Out of Memory Error may (or may not) rear it's ugly head again. That's life, I can deal with it.
Like I said in my previous post; I have ran Bryce on another way way more underpowered system IBM with onboard graphics and only 500mb ram and yeah Bryce will complete a scene with no errors at all but other times (days) I might get that Out of Memory error for the same file/scene. Again; this is an occasional error, and oh well I will have to put up with it, shut up and get over it. LOL!!
So anyway, I'm always looking for ways to optimize files and to create scenes that are less intensive on system resources all without compromising quality. This thread is very interesting and I thank the OP and others for sharing their knowledge.
Okay well I fear your aversion to any suggestion about upgrading your computer is keeping you from hearing everything you are being told. Along with the hardware upgrade suggestion I also told you about known problems with DS4 and Bryce that were fixed by DS4.5 there is even a thread here in this forum all about how the bridge is finally working again. So no, you don't need to just put up with these problems you might only need to download the latest version of Studio 4. Aside from that I told you of a better work around then trying to shrink down the size of a model. If the scenes you posted are typical of your work then you would hardly notice the visual impact of reducing the size of the textures but the savings on memory can be big. Yet you didn't acknowledge either of those suggestions, you only continued to assert that the hardware you have could in no way be contributing to your problem. I'm inclined to disagree but that's just my opinion and yours is different. I'm not here to change your opinion. Just to offer suggestions that have helped plenty of others with similar issues.
I find Mr. Brinnens tutorial instructional ALL the time. I never get all the information, but allways learn someting AND have ideas of my own on have to do certain things. Now if I only could afford a pc wich were strong enough for the Studio bridge......
@Sara16 - those renders look very nice. My question is: where are the shadows?
@LordHardDriven - this lake scene came out very nicely.
Good question thanks for asking :)
It was deliberately done to control exactly how I wanted the final render to be although for example I did allow shadows on the left side only in that city scene since that should not effect the main perspective I'll be focused on (front) and these scenes will be brief (no more than 5 seconds) with possible pan/zoom effects done in Sony Vegas.
In another scene (interior) most if not all shadows are turned off again all these scenes are quick takes at no more than 5 seconds per-scene - transition to many other scenes. * Importantly; I'll be using PIP and other effects in those scenes using Sony Vegas and any shadowing will most likely cause unwanted issues for example; when I use PIP effects I would have to match existing shadows and this is what I want to avoid.
I also wanted some scenes to have a clear crisp look to begin with (you can add haze and such but cannot remove once it's rendered) thereby I also lowered the atmosphere settings (haze and such) in some of the scenes I will be using. PIP, chromakey, lighting and other effects will be done in Sony Vegas.
I see. I didn't know your target application. Shadows do indeed add to the render time.
Thanks, that means alot coming from you. Yeah I was pretty pleased with it myself, it came out very close to what David made, the only thing I can think of to improve it would be to get your HDRI one pack so I can have the better HDRI to work with (since it's the background as well as HDRI light. That and maybe some guy in a row boat fishing. :)
BTW - I'm reducing Lucy, 1st step. Not yet finished. The machine has been constantly on the HD since 25 hours, CPU usage 1 to 2%, Memory at 7.9 GB of 8.0. How long did it take for you?
Less then a minute for each reduction. When I did it however I converted to .obj first and then did the reductions.
@ Horo
Thanks for the compliment, greatly appreciated :)
Looking good Mark, I've got to say I'm impressed with the precision you are getting with your results.
I suppose the way I do things tends always towards trying to get the most out of the each object or setting. So it is not the simplest in terms of execution, but once things are set up, scenes can be scaled more easily because the problems in the scene have been solved not by the objects within the scene but by the way their are lit by their environment and the materials that are applied to them. Now you have your lake scene set up, you should be in a position to make changes to the sun position, landscape shape and camera position without totally breaking your scene. It should, after a fashion, still "work". When I first began using Bryce, my scene set up was very temperamental, and any changes - even slight ones - I made would ruin the scene. Now I work hard to build in flexibility and make components more reusable.
Thanks, I try to do things as exactly as possible, sometimes that means going back and relooking at/replaying a part of the tutorial to have the sun in the same position, the terrain as close to the same shape, the material-render-skylab settings exactly the same. I mean in your tutorial for adjusting say the haze height, you might do that in the haze window but if I can get a glimpse of the numbers everything is set at in the skylab, material lab, terrain editor, etc I'll make sure it's the same on mine.
Of course this need to adhere so exactly to things isn't always good, like today I was frustrated when looking to do the lighthouse tutorial because I don't own Cloudscapes 7 - Night Clouds. I also backed off on doing the abstract tutorial because I think there it might be more important to have the exact same HDRI rather then a free lorez version. Also it kind of scared me seeing your machine struggle a bit more then normal. :ohh: Whatever your's does mine's usually 4 times worse. :vampire:
Having checked Mark, neither the clouds nor the resolution of the HDRI are central to the tutorials. Any cloud slab could be employed, or none, the key point was to show that the two effects could co-exist. Night clouds, seemed a logical choice for this scene - but any night sky would do. And for the HDRI, any resolution version of the same HDRI will provide the same light, the only thing that will suffer is the resolution of the background image. Given the abstract nature of this scene, you need not worry overly on that score, since the image is not a significant feature. The render time, however, yes, due to the Max ray depth setting ... that might give your CPU pause for thought.
Yeah but I'm not really at the point of creating my own cloud slabs yet. I'd like to understand more about making them first. :) Also I already had some other changes in mind and so didn't want to make things too different. Otherwise comparing my results would become even more difficult. Like for example, I'm interested in using the lighting aspect of the lamp you used to create the lighthouse but I'd like to adapt it to work with either of the two lighthouses below. The one on the left is from Alfons Blom and either it came in Bryce 7 pro as part of the free content or I got it from some place like sharecg. The other one is made for Bryce by Phillip Drawbridge, that I purchase way back when Daz first aquired Bryce.
I'm leaning more towards the one on the left as it would work better in the scene describe by the tutorial then the one on the right. I guess I could just try to wing it but I don't feel confident enough with Bryce yet to just wing it. I'm not yet at the point of visualization of a scene in my mind and being able to know how to realize that visualization in Bryce.
If you use the left one, you'll have to open the shades. The right one has already glass windows.
The one on the right is more interesting geometrically, but the one on the left more like the one in the tutorial... Which hasn't really helped you chose has it? Sorry.