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I don't want to sound overly competitive, but the chance to win, and see other people win, is a major issue why I do take part in the New User Contest. I do learn each and every time I take part - both from improving my own work and from seeing how others improve - but if all I wanted was to learn something specific, I think I'd rather start a separate thread asking specific questions, or check online tutorials.
Note that I entered even when I was pretty new, and when my entries could have stood a lot of improvement. I think not winning isn't a big deal, but the chance to place is a nice motivator.
Oh the chance to do the contest and see what independent people think of my work puts some drive in me as well, and the chance to win something to fill my daz library adds to that. ;-P
but I can perfectly understand all those who don't want to go through that.
On a second note, that forum for 2D programm tips and tricks exchange would be a very good idea.
Thanks to you both for your feedback! Looking forward to hearing from others as well on both topics! :) In general the topics have all opened up some good discussion and debate and I hope at the end will bring about some solutions that possibly add to everyone's experience :) I think its always good to take a look at things after some time to see if more can be done so I appreciate everyone's views, feedback, candid remarks, and help! It is all helpful, useful information to making this contest, the WIP Thread and this general area as productive, fun, and helpful as possible :)
Can't wait to hear some more feedback and ideas! :) Thanks to everyone who has given their thoughts so far! :) <3</p>
I am no stranger to competition. I trained and exhibited horses for a living for 25 years. Competition isn't a problem.
I also judged shows and coached a national reserve judging team. I've been on both sides of judging. Furthermore, I never had the luxury of anonymity. Every decision I made was public, and I had no problems justifying them based on my standards, breed standards and contest rules.
That being said, IRL I would not continue to show my horses to judges that were erratic, arbitrary, did unexplainable placings and refused to comment why, and those who just made a competition a random lottory.
I have walked out of arenas and dropped the ribbons in the first trash can, because winning under those kinds of judges was worthless and continuing to show to them a waste of time and energy.
This is how I feel regards this competition based on 2 years of observation. Results rarely reflect the aim of the contest (education in 3d apps), and to me postwork is the magic bullet in too many cases.
My own feeling lies in more towards "what suits the art".
As someone mentioned up above, as I'm learning, I try to do it all "in camera". I'll work for hours to get a skirt to hang just right without it morphing weird...but you know what, sometimes you just hit the limits of the software or the user.
I pretty much leave photoshop to clean up stray bits or composting multi-layers. (and framing for when I go to post to my dA). That's how it's done in the movie and pros..rendering, compostiing, clean up,
The contest doesn't limit software used..daz, bryce, Poser, carrera..nor render engines...
But say for example: "I want a lightning strike". Well, are you going to require someone to go buy ...." ..I went to search the store for a possible lighting prop as a "force to buy a product" thing, but I see only two lightning products... the Electomancy power and lightning brushes for photoshop, which pretty much, I think, makes my point about what's best for the art.
Or maybe I don't have a point...I guess that's why it's worth 2¢.
Anyone who has ever contacted me directly with questions on why they didn't win, or wanted information on what may help them win in the future has always been replied to with a full account of the "whys" to them personally. (My direct e-mail is readily available in the main rules thread though I will give it again here [email protected]) As for my name, it is Aundrea Anderson :) I use DAZ_ann0314 as before I got I started working with DAZ3D that was my online name and the name I use as a broker here and so it was the name most people on the site were familiar with.
While you may have experience with contests, which I can respect, they are a different type of competition. I have experience with contests (artistic) as well as experience with teaching and how we do the contest is very much based on my experiences in both areas. While from the "competitive aspect" openly giving "why" who won may be desirable, from the "learning" perspective it is generally not. From our experience it generally removed the "fun" aspect in the competition (see explanation below). There have been plenty of studies done on how competition influences a learning environment, highlighting both it's strengths and the pitfalls of it. I have reviewed a fair bit of that information and have also, over the last 6 years the contest, been doing my own trial and error to see for myself what worked and what did not.
We do not "publish" why we chose the artwork we do as in the past we've tried giving feedback on who won, why, etc as well as tried giving feedback on every entry and in both cases what we found is most people were more discouraged than encouraged by it, spent more time sharing or arguing why they personally agreed or disagreed, and in the end hurt others' feelings. Hearing things like "well it was a nice image and I understand you felt the lighting was exceptional, but I disagree it was mediocre at best" was not conducive to a positive learning environment and us broaching the topic opened it to others wanting to then discuss their feeling on the matter as well and in the end the winners were hurt, frustrated, and, in one case I can remember quite clearly, humiliated by other members :( That is not now, nor will it ever be, the learning environment I want in the competition and I stand behind that choice 100 percent.
I want to make clear, I am not talking about my images. I'm talking about seeing the final results and wondering how and why. Sometimes quite a lot.
Well I addressed why we don't discuss why what image won above. Honestly, there is no reason to post it. Why they won is because the judges felt the artwork fit with and best showed a command of the topic being discussed and did so in an esthetically pleasing, refined, or unique way (more weight being placed on the command of topic than the latter part but both are looked at especially in the case of ties during voting)
Art is very subjective and is honestly a more passionate and emotional endeavor than most things judged which means there will always be people who disagree with who won and there will always be those that feel their work (as they have a personal connection to it) was better or that another participants' art that spoke personally to them was better etc. Other than removing the contest all together, there is no way to remedy that. We could let you all vote on who you think should win but those votes are always clouded by personal feelings on the people, not the artwork. We can let the community vote, but they will be looking as veterans and not looking at it for the specific things that we are (those things changing from topic to topic with the contest).
I want to add or rather reiterate, in previous years we did provide detailed reasons for why we chose the winning images, based on what, provided our judges feedback etc. (basically had all the judging right in front of everyone) and in the end the reaction was "I don't agree, I don't feel it should have won" or "Well it's nice but mine was better" or "Well but I think this or that image showed xyz better than what you say did, that image wasn't that good" sometimes to the point of writing paragraphs of why something shouldn't have won by their estimation. While the majority agreed and were happy for the winners, there were always a couple who's comments would make the winners feel made fun of, bullied, or would tear the winning artwork apart. I for one don't ever want to see that again. :(
I can definitely see this happening...art is very subjective...and no matter how well intentioned everyone may be discussions can quickly deteriorate and get off track from the original purpose.
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Anyone who has ever contacted me directly with questions on why they didn't win, or wanted information on what may help them win in the future has always been replied to with a full account of the "whys" to them personally. (My direct e-mail is readily available in the main rules thread though I will give it again here [email protected]) As for my name, it is Aundrea Anderson :) I use DAZ_ann0314 as before I got I started working with DAZ3D that was my online name and the name I use as a broker here and so it was the name most people on the site were familiar with.
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I did not know that we could get feedback from you Ann as to why our image did not win/place or what was lacking and could be improved for next time. That is good to know.
Well it isn't exactly a feature of the contest but as I am the contact person when people have questions etc, people have e-mailed me and asked that or similar questions and I've always answered :) I think knowing where you may have fell a little short can sometimes be very useful (just as knowing where you are excelling and I tend to give both if/when I give feedback) but it is not something I would choose to do in front of everyone. I think that is more private to that artist.
IDK who does or doesn't know me PA wise here, but as a PA you get feedback from DAZ3D from time to time. I can tell you right now I am glad they tell just "me" what the feedback is as I am the type that just making a mistake and being told in private embarrasses and upsets me (at least initially) let along everyone knowing what I did or didn't do LOL (perfectionists..gotta love um ROFL) and this stuff is one of those things that even the most seasoned, skilled, and practiced artists can make boo boos with or miss little details etc.
Just on the topic, my wonderful advice of the day, no artist is perfect and sometimes it can be in the imperfections that the beauty of a piece comes out so try not to get discouraged when it happens (words I need to remember more often LOL)
As someone who is also not formally trained in anykind of art and most of the time staying in the background not so much involved in the WIP Threads, I might add a few points.
I like the way the New Users Contest is now and in my opinion it should not be changed in any way.
As a hobbyist all of my work is done in my free time and it is just for fun. If this contest would be only for the win at the end of the month and if everyone would have this attitude I would not participate.
Some may read as much as they like about art and look up tutorials all over the internet. But that alone will not improve someones artwork. There is a practical component in every kind of art.
Packaging the learning experience in a contest is a very good thing. Because there is the need to finish a project. What do we learn when there is no need to deliver a result? We may get the theory of some techniques but when there is no need to finish a project, why start the project in the first place?
Again this is just a hobby for me and it is more the >Learning by Doing< aspect that catches my attention.
An additonal thread focused on postwork would be interesting. If it is helpful, I offer to post my previous postworked entries for the New Users Contest there with the plain renders for comparison.
I would be happy to post both my raw render and a post if I have one. I believe and try to strive for that perfect render and, I try to ultimately show as best I can the DAZ3D programs power, clarity and special effects. (That is if I can figure out how to create them with the 3D applications only.) To add a 2D editing program can and does bring another dimension to the finished image as some things can be added to an image that was not part of the 3D program or render.
I love the competitions and I am grateful to DAZ3D for putting them on. It helps for me to learn how to make my art better and the competition helps put more of an edge and focus to a project for me. If the requirement changes to add both raw render and post image I would be happy to comply. One question though, I have mainly been using Bryce as my main choice of rendering program at this time and it only generates a .BMP file. Would the website then allow .BMP file upload?
I am not sure if .BMP can be uploaded, and from my experience, .BMPs are much larger than jpgs. I think it would be better to convert to jpg for posting.
I knew that would most likely be the case since .bmp is not a web compatible type. I normally have to translate the image into a .jpg since the raw file is a .bmp. I usually never add anything than my name and date. I do try to make it a point not to since I feel part of the main purpose with the contests are a mastery of the DAZ3D core program, products and also learning better composition and lighting etc along the way.
Thanks for all the feedback everyone! I am reviewing all this and will let everyone know what is decided :)
On the BMP question. as Cris mentioned I do not believe the forums will even accept that format but converting to a jpg would not be considered post work. nor would adding your signature or cropping or similar things. :)
I haven't read all of the posts yet but it all depends on the contest and what is being judged. Are you judging on the final output or the rendered output. Does more postwork loose points. Now if it is like E-on's contests (very little postwork allowed) then I would say yes show both but again it depends on the contest and the parameters of said contest.
I've not forgotten about this...just still not sure whether changing things would be beneficial or not. I am still somewhat undecided.
I'm still pretty new at this, so from a learning stand point, having both the raw renders and stylized post work would be helpful to people trying to improve. However, seeing both would surely take away from the dazzle quality of the final work. It's never as amazing when you see how the magic was done.
So why not have both? In some contests, require both the raw and final, and in others just the dazzle factor of the final. Just my two cents.
Actually that's pretty much what I've decided :) To require it on some contests but not for "all" contests as only certain ones is it really an issue. :)
I agree. Without getting drawn into the whole debate about the validity of postwork perse, showing before and after seems a reasonable approach. For those who are reluctant to show their before "WIPS" because they aren't of suitable quality, that is precisely the point - it shows how much postwork is required to produce a polished, finished product from a poor render. (I am put in mind of a principle that I always tried to apply in my work, that had nothing to do with art: "If you are reluctant to tell everyone what you are doing and why, then maybe you shouldn't be doing it".)
I realize DAZ already arguably supports its share of contests, but for those married to postwork, perhaps a contest using a plain, stock rendered scene that could be postworked would be a solution.
I'm fine with postwork pictures, as nearly everybody postworks all kind of pictures today (I definitely postwork my photos).
Except in cases where postwork would be contrary to the goal of the contest.
Poses contest-postworking light is okay.
Lighting contest - postworking lights is not okay.