my personal opinion about a happy forum
Diomede
Posts: 15,135
I cut and pasted this from another thread because where it was it seemed too much like a response to a single thread instead of a more general observation. This is just my opinion regarding what seems to me to be a trend. It is not about any one or two threads or one or two individuals. When I refer to the "ratio" below, I include myself. This post in and of itself is at the wrong end of the ratio, as you will see if you keep reading.
For the forum in general, I prefer the format of
- person posts question or problem to the Carrara forum
priority of responses
- how to solve the problem or answer the question in Carrara (this is a Carrara forum, after all)
- other resources likely to be helpful (eg. links to free youtube tutorials, other forum threads,...)
- how to solve the problem or answer the question in a different program that the poster is likely to have access to
- comparison of Carrara and other accessible options
- subjective statements about personal work habits,...
- jokes, and other off topic observations that keep things light and build a common community
- unfounded speculation about the software manufacturer
I am worried that there has been a trend in the forum reversing the order of priority. Couldn't care less about personal attachments to software, etc. This is the Carrara forum. It is not a personal thing to expect a focus on Carrara. It is just truth in labeling. A response that starts with "your problem might be solved if you follow the steps in screensot 1.of the Carrara ___ room..." is of higher priority than "Carrara really sucks and Daz does't support it enough and ___ does it better..." There is room for both kinds of posts, but the rate of occurrence of the first should be several times the second.
Lets all try to have a ratio that is helpful. "____ sucks" is entertaining but is not helpful unless accompanied with a solution. Aside, I'm originally from Philly, so I prefer "Yo, ____, you suck!" to "____ sucks" but this is a worldwide forum and that sort of cultural marker may be lost on many people.
Everyone has been helpful and most people will complain occasionally, so this is just a reminder about the ratio. Bi!*h, moan and complain? Sure, that makes life worth living. But try to solve the problem along the way with the tools (Carrara 8.5 or earlier) in the title of the forum.
That is my opinion. :coolsmile:
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Comments
And adding my 2 cents, I cannot stand the "you cannot do that in Carrara" from ignorant people who do not know everything about the software but think they do.
"I do not know how to do that in Carrara, I do not know if you can," would be the more appropriate answer.
I myself have corrected a person a few times on things they did not know you can do in carrara more than once and I am no expert.
if I view posts on ignore that is
I agree. Let me say this; the people who say "you cannot do that in Carrara" aren't looking deep enough.
Very well said Diomede! I agree 100% That seems a logical, sane, and - perhaps more important - an extremely *useful* way to prioritize response. Seems like an approach that yield a lot of forward-progress in helping people get solid, good, useful info that's needed to solve problems quickly.
I agree that it can be cathartic to b!tch and moan too, and I'd be dishonest if I didn't admit I enjoy a good brawl every now and then, in fact everything can and should be challenged, nothing wrong with that and that can lead to more knowledge and better understanding of our tools and options and how it might all fit together into a better/ more efficient/ more productive workflow. But it also seems to me that the 'b!tch and moan' 'this sux and can never work' approach is probably one of the least likely to yield results (besides maybe a lot of navel gazing and a weird passive aggressive catharsis). Seems to me that 'this will never work' is a self-fulfilling prophesy that very easily can blind folks from ever seeing a solution that might have been there all along, if that makes any sense.
As a slightly off-topic aside, re: the 'Carrara can't do that, as everyone knows' rumor mill... Honestly, I'm still looking for what it is exactly we can't do in Carrara. Seems like every other week someone is finding some new cool solution or unlocking some unknown way of doing things that no-one ever knew before. Feels very much like reversing some cool alien technology, kind of fun to unlock pieces of the puzzle, and I'm constantly astonished at all the things Carrara can do, that I never realized before. :)
That's a pretty safe statement. You can do just about anything 3D in any 3D app...the only difference, as I've said many times before, is how quick and efficient it is for YOU, and whether it lets YOU achieve the quality and result you want.
Heck you can model anything in any app that allows you to enter individual vertices and connect them with edges, and fill that in with polygon faces. But that doesn't mean it's desirable for you.
Maybe people are intending to say "you can't do that easily" or something. But I'm not sure I'd call them ignorant. That's kinda harsh, especially in a thread about a "happy forum". :) :)
Personally, I think a happy forum is one where you give people the benefit of the doubt, and don't assume they are bad intentioned or ignorant or whatever. And when people post, any information is good information, IMO. You never know what you might learn. Assuming you don't mind learning, that is... :) :) :)
And if it doesn't apply then skip down to the next post. No need to get upset solely because they strayed off topic a little. Keep in mind that everyone who posts here does it voluntarily, and I think most are well intentioned and just trying to help. Might not be a good idea to demand a strict criteria of everyone.
Appreciate what everyone says, that they are giving their time for the common good, and as they say "don't sweat the small stuff".
:) :) :) :) :)
Just a thought.... :)
I believe that there is a parameter of which it is also necessary to take into account: the original language of the speaker and thus his nationality and especially he's culture.
I'm French-speaking and I have sometimes difficulties to understanding the nuances of the American English, moreover they don't have same sence of humor at all as us.
I don't say that they are "cold", but they don't laugh about all (I am Charlie! :-)).
I already saw some which was irritated because I didn't answer correctly to a question, they seemed to forget that it's an international forum and especially that our only goal is to help the others and not to attack them !
It may be also that the words chosen for the answer do not correspond exactly to the thought, it should be said that the literal translation from French to English can sometimes be surprising…:)
That's true. Lots of people get very sensitive and take things very personally. We Americans are good at that. We tend to assume the worst in people, assume they have bad intentions and are terrible people if they say something we don't like or don't agree with. Unlike some cultures, we tend to be very "uptight". Other cultures tend to be more "laid back".
Such is life... :) :)
Is that like the people who write online reviews for products that say, in effect, "Well, I haven't used the product yet, but it looked great once I got it out of the box, so I'm giving it 5 stars. You should buy one!"
I see a lot of non-helpful posts that make me wonder why the poster even bothered. :)
Of course, then there are the ones who post just so the OP won't despair, e.g., "I don't know the answer to your question, but hang in there, help is on the way." I think those posts are fine.
That's true. Lots of people get very sensitive and take things very personally. We Americans are good at that. We tend to assume the worst in people, assume they have bad intentions and are terrible people if they say something we don't like or don't agree with. Unlike some cultures, we tend to be very "uptight". Other cultures tend to be more "laid back".
Such is life... :) :)
Certainly, people taking offense, or inadvertently giving offense where none was intended, could affect whether a forum is happy or not. I hope everyone takes into account the global nature of the forum and strives to avoid both (a) taking offense where none is intended, and (b) giving offense. Momma Chohole and those folks try to deal with that, and I will leave it to them.
But just to clarify my personal view as stated in my first post. Whether a reply is responsive to a question is independent of whether the reply is offensive. These issues have nothing to do with each other. An example follows.
Question: I can't find the regular replicator. My menu only has the surface replicator. Can I replicate without a surface?
Some sample responses
a) You idiot. The regular replicator is on the top menu in the same place as the surface replicator. Hover your cursor over each icon on the top menu and the name of the tool will appear. There is a little triangle by the surface replicator. Click the triangle and another icon for the regular replicator will appear. Try reading the freakin' manual before posting such a $h1tty question, you moron.
This response (a) is both responsive to the question, and likely to be taken as personally offensive.
Alternatively,
b) I can't believe the Carrara user interface sucks this bad. In Daz Studio, you have much better control of the user interface, which panes appear, and the size of the font. You (Poster) are a wonderful human being and a valued customer. I can't believe Daz has such little regard for you that they haven't updated the Carrara menu system.
This response (b) is not personally offensive, but neither does it respond to the question in the initial post.
My opinion, just one person, is that I would prefer to see a higher ratio of response type (a) to response type (b) than has been trending lately. It is just one person's opinion. I am not easily offended, even when offense is intended.
But it is inconvenient when I have a question, and somehow defy the odds and successfully search the forum and identify a thread in which someone has asked the same question, but then I find that there is no attempt by the people responding to actually answer the question. This forum is called the Carrara forum. People have a reasonable expectation to find attempts to answer questions regarding the use of Carrara in threads that start with a question about how to do something in Carrara.
Not trying to be absolute, and not targeting any particular thread or participant. Not saying I don't complain or that I always answer a question. Just saying that to me, it would be good to have more answers that discuss how to try to do things in Carrara than seems to be trending lately. That seems pretty reasonable to me.
There are several excellent recent examples where people have gone above and beyond the call of duty to be helpful. For example, Tim and Roy (and now Chris) are practically teaching a class on uvmapping. In another thread, Roy is providing concrete examples of procedures that he finds easier in another program and asking how that could be done in Carrara (with the suggestion that it would be very inconvenient). People can respond with their attempts to do it in Carrara, and whether an analogous tool or not is found, the thread will be helpful to someone who comes across it through a search.
If someone searches the forum for information on uvmapping or the sweep tool, and these posts by Tim, Roy and Chris pop up, the thread is likely to have actual information about how to do something in Carrara, or a deficiency. If it turns out that one person thought that something could be done easily in Carrara, but subsequent posts show a bug or other obstacle, that is helpful. Similarly, if one person thought that something could not be done easily in Carrara, but it turns out in a subsequent post that there actually is an easy method in Carrara, that is also helpful. So I'm not talking about defending or attacking Carrara. It isn't a person. What is not helpful is to search for a thread on one of these topics, find one, and then have many posts that don't try to address the question and related issues.
So those are examples of great recent interaction. I'm just talking about the apparent trend, and my perception could easily be wrong.
And it has nothing whatsoever to do with taking things personally or being easily offended. I will leave it up to Momma Chohole and those folks to handle the personal side of the TOS. Feel free to call me an idiot when answering my questions, as long as you actually attempt to answer my questions. And not every post has to try to answer the questions, just talking about the ratio.
Is that like the people who write online reviews for products that say, in effect, "Well, I haven't used the product yet, but it looked great once I got it out of the box, so I'm giving it 5 stars. You should buy one!"
I see a lot of non-helpful posts that make me wonder why the poster even bothered. :)
Of course, then there are the ones who post just so the OP won't despair, e.g., "I don't know the answer to your question, but hang in there, help is on the way." I think those posts are fine.
I thinks better analogy are the people who post reviews for products (talking about anything, not specifically 3D) and say something like: "I haven't tried or used the product but it looks like it sucks". I mean what an uneducated egotistical self-important statement and I think all intelligent rational people should write it off as just that!
And this is the point I'm trying to make. I think (and I'm not singling out stringtheory, cuz this is VERY common IMO) that many people here are highly judgmental, and even though their posts might not sound that way, I think deep down inside a LOT of people have an incredibly judgmental view, and assume the worst about others and their intentions and personalities based solely on what they post. Which I think is unfortunate.
Again, people inhabit this and other forums for personal enjoyment. They aren't paid to be here, they aren't professional tech support. They do their best to help as best they can. They have their own personalities, they have their own motives and their own lives and schedules.
Some have the time to open Carrara and put together a scene or build a model and spend 3 hours doing testing and rendering and posting of videos so they can help an online poster. Others don't, or just don't feel like putting in all of that effort, for whatever reason. I've done that many times, and often find out that the OP wasn't clear in what they are asking, and was talking about something totally different, and I wasted my time explaining something that he didn't care about. And instead, the person who guessed right is the one who receives the appreciation. And often, the ones who guessed wrong tend to receive disdain.
While it would be nice if everyone just stuck to the OP's question, and guessed exactly what he was referring to, and answered that to the OP's satisfaction, taking a lot of time to do research and examples and tutorials, I don't think we should expect that of others. Personally, I feel that it is wrong to expect people to take their time to help us, and do it how we want, if they are here voluntarily. That, to me, is kind of, well, rude. But hey, that's just me.
I prefer being thankful and appreciative of whatever input people give. And if they say, "Hey, you can do that easier in DAZ studio", then maybe he's right, and maybe you might try DAZ studio of you really need that effect or whatever. Maybe you'll learn something, or have more fun, or whatever. Or maybe not. But let's not jump on people who are trying to help. And let's not assume they are "uneducated, egotistical, and self important" just because they don't respond as we'd like. Because they probaby, in real life, are good people.
And this is the point I'm trying to make. I think (and I'm not singling out stringtheory, cuz this is VERY common IMO) that many people here are highly judgmental, and even thought their posts might not sound that way, I think deep down inside a LOT of people have an incredibly judgmental view, and assume the worst about others and their intentions and personalities based solely on what they post. Which I think is unfortunate.
Again, people inhabit this and other forums for personal enjoyment. They aren't paid to be here, they aren't professional tech support. They do their best to help as best they can. They have their own personalities, they have their own motives and their own lives and schedules.
Some have the time to open Carrara and put together a scene or build a model and spend 3 hours doing testing and rendering and posting of videos so they can help an online poster. Others don't, or just don't feel like putting in all of that effort, for whatever reason. I've done that many times, and often find out that the OP wasn't clear in what they are asking, and was talking about something totally different, and I wasted my time explaining something that he didn't care about. And instead, the person who guessed right is the one who receives the thanks.
While it would be nice if everyone just stuck to the OP's question, and guessed exactly what he was referring to, and answered that to the OP's satisfaction, taking a lot of time to do research and examples and tutorials, I don't think we should expect that of others. Personally, I feel that it is wrong to expect people to take their time to help us, and do it how we want, if they are here voluntarily. That, to me, is kind of, well, rude. But hey, that's just me.
I prefer being thankful and appreciative of whatever input people give. And if they say, "Hey, you can do that easier in DAZ studio", then maybe he's right, and maybe you might try DAZ studio of you really need that effect or whatever. Maybe you'll learn something, or have more fun, or whatever. Or maybe not. But let's not jump on people who are trying to help. And let's not assume they are "uneducated, egotistical, and self important" just because they don't respond as we'd like. Because they probaby, in real life, are good people.
You make a very good point if you take my quote completely out of context :-)
I apologize if you think I took your quote out of context. But does that invalidate the points I was making? I think the points I was making are at least fairly legitimate to consider even if we erase my reference to your statement. Don't you think?
I apologize if you think I took your quote out of context. But does that invalidate the points I was making? I think the points I was making are at least fairly legitimate to consider even if we erase my reference to your statement. Don't you think?
I think you made a very good point and I agree with you. I absolutely think most people are trying to help (especially on forums of this nature where I would say all are).
My comment was specifically in response to the comment posted by wwes about people posting product reviews in general.
Let me give you a real world example. A family member produces and sells a product that the people who use it find amazing. No one who has used this products has ever had anything negative to say about it. They all love it. However a few people go onto Amazon and write a "review" before they have ever used the products and bash it. "Wow, that looks stupid" or "Why would anyone want to use such a ridiculous thing". These are the people I am talking about. If there is any value in that kind of review someone let me know as I cannot for the life of me think of one. To me these people are, and I say it again, uneducated egotistical and self-important. Uneducated because they haven't bothered to do the research into the product they are commenting about (such as trying it out). Egotistical and self-important because they honestly believe that other readers want to hear their uneducated opinion. Look at reviews on the internet. There are A LOT of these people. Slamming restaurants they have never been to, criticizing things they know nothing about and have no experience with.
But granted, my comment was a little out of context with what diomede64 originally posted about. No need to apologize. :-)
One of the fascinating things about the internet and online forums and online reviews and whatever, is that people are ACTUALLY convinced that they know a person solely by what he or she writes online. It's amazing to me. The immediately think they know enough about a person to characterize them as and idiot (or in my case "village idiot"), or egotistical, or ignorant, or whatever.
A startling fact, that few people will ever acknowledge, is that you do NOT know ANYONE solely by what they post online. Not even close. But few people will accept or admit that. They are convinced that their intuition is right, and immediately classify people as good or bad, based on some words on a page.
Unfortunate.
BTW, a real life example that might help...
Years ago I was participating in a professional forum, and chatted with a guy that seemed like somewhat of a jerk. But turns out we were both involved in an organization, and had some common interests, and had even attended the same monthly meetings.
So we decided to get together and meet. Turns out the guy had just lost his wife to cancer. She was everything to him. They had been married for almost 40 years. And just to hear him talking about his wife was so sad. We became best friends.
You never know....
JoeMamma, it is an unfortunate part of life, but it is human nature. One of the best lessons we can learn in life and business is that people are going to form their impression of something by whatever information they are presented with. It is encumbant apon us to make sure we put forward things in a way that somewhat influence the impressions that we want people to make of us.
It is the presentation that forms the opinion. A brilliant programmer going in for a job interview won't get the job if he presents himself as incompetent. The employee is not going to continue looking into how brilliant he might be if he doesn't get past the first interview. A company pitching their product to investors isn't going to get the investment if they do a bad job presenting their product. There is a reason people say you need to make a good first impression. It is the most important one and sometimes the ONLY one you get to make.
So yes, if people put themselves out there in a way that causes people to form a negative opinion, people will. Not because people are mean but because this is how we function as intelligent life forms. It has been the basis of our survival as human beings. We need to asses and judge so that we can base out following actions based on that assessment.
Think about a woman in an online dating forum. Some guy is being aggressive and negative and belittling her. It is not her job to look beyond that and investigate further to see if maybe he has good qualities, maybe he's a good guy having a bad day (and maybe that is the case) but it is not relavant. What is relavant is that he had an opportunity to present himself and he did not do it in the way that formed a good impression.
Wrong or right, this is how life works. If people don't want to be perceive in a certain way it is up to them to project themselves in a way they do want to be perceived. It is not up to me or anyone else to go to their homes and see if they treat their children well and smile at their neighbors.
No, but you could ASSUME they are good people. It's your choice to assume they are bad, nobody else's. But if you want to assume the worst, and require others to prove you wrong, that's up to you I suppose.
And by the way, I totally agree with you that when dealing with people you MUST be aware of their natural disposition to assume the worst in others and want you to prove them wrong. You need to present yourself in a certain way, and hope that it's the magic key that will work with each individual. Yes, that's human nature.
But it's not a one sided obligation, IMO.
Both parties have an obligation, if we're adults and want to have a happy forum and get along in life in general. We have an obligation to meet people's expectations, and on the other hand we also have an obligation to accept and respect and appreciate others, even if they don't come across exactly as we wish. Because people are different. And if we are really going to be tolerant and accepting of others, we need to be tolerant and accepting of others.
It's a good thing.
I just assume you're all scumbags. Like me. :) (kidding)
No, but you could ASSUME they are good people. It's your choice to assume they are bad, nobody else's. But if you want to assume the worst, and require others to prove you wrong, that's up to you I suppose.
I don't think its really about assuming they are good or bad or evil or anything really. I don't think anyone is making complete personality assessments based on a few comments they are reading. It is possible to form an impression without labeling a person one way or another.
But I think most of us can determine whether a statement is being made with knowledge or ignorance. That doesn't mean we label the writer as a bad person or for that matter even have a negative impression of that person but rather we choose to absorb what that person had to say or choose to discard the information being passed. Sure we may respond with a correction or attempt to relay what we believe to be correct and state our opinions. Like I said, that's what humans do. You're doing it right now.
I absolutely agree.
Yeah, I think most people agree with the concept, at least... :) :) :)
The practice is quite another thing, unfortunately... :) :)
Yeah, I think most people agree with the concept, at least... :) :) :)
The practice is quite another thing, unfortunately... :) :)
True... with the exception of maybe our Facebook accounts, we don't know anyone online well enough to treat in a disrespectful way. Personally I don't think there is any reason to treat anyone with disrespect or rudeness.
LOL :-)
Well, yeah...at least conceptually I think that's true and we can all agree on it.
But don't forget, if you decide you don't like someone, and you are certain that he/she is a jerk or something, it's okay to call them names and disrespect them and be as rude as you want. That's, like, the rules I think. :) :) :)
Hey, don't underestimate us....
Most of us are TOTAL scumbags. :) :) :)