Clothing Fit Strategy?
Dondec
Posts: 243
I've been posing the Ynes generation 4 figure with canned poses and V4 clothing I've tweaked with either the provided or custom morphs. Looked ok.
Dropping on a different set of poses I'm seeing a new rash of poke through. Makes me wonder if there's an easier/better way to set things up.
* Do I need to apply V4 clothing to a figure "shaped" as default V4 before applying a figures custom body shape?
* Does converting a V4-base figure to generation 5 or 6 have less clothing fit issues (because of the gen 5/6 technology used)? I have GenX and the UVs, but have not tried clothing conversion/fit experiments.
Experienced users... love to hear your thoughts on this. Got a good working strategy?.
Thanks in advance!
- Don
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I have recently been using http://www.daz3d.com/poke-away to get rid of poke through in Carrara. It works great, but I am not sure if it only works on Genesis figures.
For the Gen 4 and earlier figures, you should check to see if the conformed items use the same morphs. There also may be adjustment morphs you can tweak to help with the fit. If all else fails, you can hide the offending body parts. For example, if you have someone wearing opaque leggings or tight pants, and you get pole through at the thighs or hips, you could hide those with no problems. You could also edit the mesh by using soft select or the magnet tool to push or pull the offending polygons into position.
Do you fix the poke through first in Poser or Studio? I was hoping it worked directly in Carrara but the product appears to be only compatible with Poser and Studio and the round trip is probably not so convenient for animation. I tend to struggle with the vertices in the model room to fix poke through but in the absence of proper dynamic clothing, one is hopeful for less tedious ways of handling poke through.
Do you fix the poke through first in Poser or Studio? I was hoping it worked directly in Carrara but the product appears to be only compatible with Poser and Studio and the round trip is probably not so convenient for animation. I tend to struggle with the vertices in the model room to fix poke through but in the absence of proper dynamic clothing, one is hopeful for less tedious ways of handling poke through.
I only tried poke-away directly in Carrara. It appears to be just morphs that you adjust to remove the poke through. There may be more to it in DAZ Studio or Poser.
Thanks, good to know, will add it to my wishlist. It would be really nice if it works well for animation too.
I use V4/M4 pretty much exclusively. There are always a few issues here and there with clothing poke through, usually quickly addressed by a few touches on the parameters tab for the clothing using existing morphs built into the clothing itself. For serious changes I can also use carrara magnets (there's a video tut on that somewhere) and get even more hardcore by creating my own morphs in the clothing using the carrara modeling in the assembly room function (another vid tut somewhere, I'll try to dig it up if I can find it). But it almost never comes to that.
It's a tradeoff, I also have tons of Genesis content and some Genesis2 content, which both address pokethrough issues very easily with the Pokethru product, as mentioned, and this works just fine right in Carrara, but I prefer V4/M4 because I prefer the look and realism of the character over Genesis and have many more texture sets and clothing for V4/M4, also I have a massive pose library for V4/M4 that is highly organized and ready to go. While you can apply V4/M4 poses to Genesis (to be specific, not the DS version of the poses, but the poser version of the poses will work fine, as long as applied to the hip) because the bone structure of Genesis is different then the generation 4 figures, the poses don't apply quite right and require some adjusting, particularly in the hands and feet, which will be quite a bit off. I recently purchased Slosh's Handy Dandy to see how well it could correct the hands and feet of Genesis and Genesis2 when using V4/M4 poses but was saddened to find it's not a preset pose but is instead a DS script, so only works in DS and I can't seem to use it in Carrara.
So while pokethrough issues are more easily addressed by the Genesis character for sure (and for animation I would probably prefer Genesis) the hassle of trying to correct posing in Genesis outweighs the other benefits for me, which is why I mostly stick with V4/M4 (plus I prefer the way generation 4 looks).
However if clothing pokethrough is a bigger hassle for you, then you might want to switch to Genesis, because pokethrough on Genesis is even more easily dealt with (as long as you get that pokethru product).
Thanks everybody for your replies. I guess I'm next in line for that Poke-Away product then, which means I'll probably end up converting Ynes to Genesis using the Generation X product and required UVs. Its worth the experiment. I'm doing animations so I guess I need to know what's doable and why Gen5 is easier to animate..
Getting back to EvilProducer's comments, I've held back on hiding polys so far. For some reason I feel there's something truly sneaky about doing that, haha, I've never done it before. I suppose I should try that first. If that's the easiest thing to do, I'll be sneaking around a lot more.
I don't have enough experience with figures to understand the trade offs between Gen4 and Gen5 at this point, so I appreciate your comments Jonstark. I started my current Ynes animation project using canned poses, then hand keying the tweens... as opposed to starting from AniBlocks. Sounds like if I convert to Genesis, I won't be able convert the animation keys I've got. Never thought of that. Hmmm...
- Don
I'm using Carrara 7.2 Pro and as such the Gen. 4 figures are as high as I can go, so I can't offer any practical experience with Genesis or later.
I will say this, hiding polys is not a cheat. Well it is, but then again, so much in 3D is a cheat- Heck, even the practical artists such as photographers employ cheats, such as filters, light reflectors, etc. to create their images.
To show how potentially useful this is, and not just for poke through, take a look:
I manually selected the polys I wanted to hide for this video. Then I parented a machine gun to the leg and with the use of some Target Helper Objects, I was able to make this little proof of concept video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQhoy3hB9J0
To hide a rigged figure's polys, select the figure's model, then open it in the vertex modeler. You can also do this in the Assembly room.
You can select by shading domain if it is a whole domain that needs to be hidden. To do this, you would use the Selection Menu--> Select By--> Shading Domain. A little window will open with a list of the shading domains. Select the one you want. Repeat as necessary.
Next, go to View--> Hide Selection.
You can also manually select the polygons you want hidden by using the standard selection tools, like marquee, brush etc.
If you need to see the polys again, in the VM, go to View--> Reveal Hidden.
Rigging is not effected. UVs are not screwed up.
Thanks EvilProducer! I'm pasting your excellent write-up in my Notes this very minute. Much appreciated.
- Don
PS. I was just kidding when I said hiding polys was "sneaky", and I'm sure you realized that. But I do see your point. For certain types of poke-through this is clearly the fastest solution.
I kind of figured it was kidding. Those damned emoticons always give it away. ;-)
A lot of times when I write up something, I try and keep in mind that other people may have a similar issue and have found the thread via a search, so I tend to write my replies as if I have no clue as to the skill set of the reader or OP. Sometimes this can come across as over-kill for a response, so my apologies if it came across that way.
Finally got a chance to get back to this. Couple things to report:
* The Hide Polys technique doesn't work in 8.5 Pro. They are hidden, but only in the vertex modeler. Return to the Assembly Room and they appear and unfortunately also render. Evil Producer... I sure wish this method worked because its far more desirable than reassigning polys to a new Shader Domain and assigning an Invisibility shader to them (no easy return path if you need to show the poly's later).
* The Poke Away product does work with Genesis, but not Genesis 2. Figures I've converted from V4.2base via Gen X2 in DS and loaded in Carrara come in with the XAway_ morph parameters all set up if its a Genesis figure only.
* Auto Fit to Genesis seems to work perfectly with the shirt and pants I've tried.
* Loading V4.2 directly from Carrara's browser and applying my figure's Ynes morphs in Carrara works fine... but had the worst Auto Fit To results for this body morph. If I removed the Ynes morphs to return to default V4 shape the clothing fit perfectly. Reapplying the body morphs to V4... the clothing stayed the same, in other words it didn't follow the body morph, making the clothes look like rags (see pic)
* Applying the Ynes figure morphs to V4.2 in DS, then saving as scene subset (can't save as Character Preset, not a weight mapped figure) and Importing the figure in Carrara doesn't work. The figure's body is messed up on import. I tried this to see if a DS-saved version of the figure would work better, but because of the body shape corruption this procedure AFAICT is not viable.
* Below is a shot of L to R: Ynes as a V4.2-base, Genesis-base and Genesis 2-base. You can see how poorly Fit To works with V4. This was an Aiko shirt and V4 jeans. Either Carrara's Fit To for V4 is broken, or I'm missing something.
* Fit To its actually perfect for the Genesis-base here, no poke through at all. If I dial down the Ynes morph, returning it to default V4 shape, the clothes morph in sync and remain fitted.
* Genesis 2 gets 2nd place with less poke through than V4. The clothes also morphed in sync if I dialed down the Ynes body morph, though the poke through remained the same despite figure shape/size.
Based on this, it looks as though Genesis may be my best choice for my animations, going forward. It got a perfect Fit To score here and also loads with the Poke Away morphs imbedded. I didn't need those morphs for this T pose, but did see the need when I animated the limbs.
Again, the Genesis and Genesis 2 figures were created in DS using Gen X2 from a V4 figure morph. The V4 figure (L) was directly loaded in Carrara with figure morphs applied there as well.
- Don
Just a quick note that Poke-Away is just for Genesis. There are 2 different Poke-Away products for Genesis2 (one for the Genesis2 male and one for the female), you can find at http://www.daz3d.com/poke-away2-for-genesis-2-bundle.
It's been a while since I tested them, but I remember they both worked with their respective figures.
I'll throw my useless editorial comments in here....sorry I can't be of more help.
It seems kinda sad that here we are in 2015, and we're still using a conforming/rigged clothing technology that's out of the 1990's or something. We have super high powered computers and all kinds of collision detection technology out there, but we're still hobbling along with such an antiquated technology. These same problems have been dogging Poser and other users since the very beginning.
The solution is so simple and elegant, and already implemented in something like Marvelous Designer. But we don't even need that, just an extension of the existing cloth/collision technology to make an "autofit" algorithm that allows users to fit a clothing obj in seconds. It's more of a "shrinkwrap", that already has existed in other software for a very long time. Just move the mesh object into position, and the algorithm does a user-defined shrink wrap until it fits.
Anyway, sorry for the diversion....back to your regularly scheduled solution.