Cleopatra 8.1 Ancient Treasure Bundle - The continuing decline of DAZ bundles

xyer0

Leana said:

vwrangler said:

I wonder if this means that Cleopatra is an Artstation character?

Looks like she is one:  https://www.artstation.com/artwork/3oRw4J

If she looked that good/real, I'd like her! Somebody Dazzed the ball. 

tsarist

Rod Wise Driggo said:

Phew. IMO not that customer friendly if this kicks only if both of those themed mini bundles are purchased leaving out buyers of all the former Egyptian themed bundles. 
I bought Twosret, Khemsit and the Oasis bundle and don't get that coupon on todays new Egyptian themed bundle. Not nice.

Yes. I was thinking the same thing. I think the bundle is a little puny for the price. No orange or purple banner for me. :-(

I'm not even crazy about the Cleopatra character. A tad too stylized for me.

I really did like that Oasis set, so I picked it up.

MelissaGT

Gr00vus said:

Only difference I see between that art station render and the 21st promo render on the DAZ product page is the art station shader is better. That has nothing to do with Genesis. DAZ could do better with its out of the box shaders in general, they're hit and miss depending on the character.  What's been done with the new "PBR Shader" so far isn't much (if any) of an improvement over what people have been getting out of the Uber shader. V8.1's shader is pretty good, but I haven't seen any other character shaders built on the "PBR Shader" that have been noteworthy.

While we're at it, the lip texture map for this Cleopatra product doesn't seem to match the lip sculpt - how does a thing like that make it through QA (at art station or here)?

Not only that, but I honestly think the new shader is a step backwards from the Uber Shader. Yes, we have a couple new cool things, but their benefit is outweighed by the loss of the sss that can be achieved with the older shader. Why they removed that flexibility is beyond me.  

Cybersox

outrider42 said:

 

Also, Daz seriously needs some more in house talent rather than depending on buying from 3rd parties so much. People who can not only help create characters, but also lend a hand in designing the next generation Genesis. Daz desperately needs Genesis 9 to be drop dead amazing, or they will face severe consequences, potentially falling out of favor like Poser. I do not think I am being overly dramatic, 3D tech moves fast and the battles are not fair. You either innovate or die. Daz has been around some 20 years, and that is swell, but there is no guarantee whatsoever they will be around for another 10. Blender just released a new update for Make Human, something that is free. This may sound harsh, but I believe Daz needs a kick to the rear if they want to be around the next decade. Consider this some tough love. I say these things not out of malice but because I believe that they can be better.

DAZ has usually been late to the party when it comes to innovation.  It took years and years of users complaining before they finally got off their butts and introduced user creatable dynamic cloth and hair systems, even though Poser has had both of those features... plus a number more that DAZ Studio still doesn't have... since 2003.  Really, though, a lot of DAZ's sucess has been as much luck as strategy, starting with a core initial creative team (most now gone for a decade) that jump started it with some very innovative work and the fortuitous fact that their direct competitor Poser was sold to Smith MIcro in 2008, who seemed to be completely uninterested in investing time in advancing their product to the next level, allowing DAZ to slowly catch up, and the outside development of Iray. 

Gr00vus

I struggled for a while with the new "PBR Shader" but I got stuck trying to get control of specular the way I'm used to with the Uber shader. That might be more a function of me sucking at working with the Dual Lobe Specular settings, but for the life of me I could only increase the specular effect a tiny bit. For instance, it seems Fresnel isn't an option for the Top Coat in the new shader. I loved Fresnel. I've given up working with the new shader until I can see someone such as yourself or one of the other talented shader manipulators get something better from it than the results achieved with the Uber shader.

Totally unrelated question - where do you get vascular and/or subdermal maps you use to construct your custom translucency maps?

melissastjames said:

Gr00vus said:

Only difference I see between that art station render and the 21st promo render on the DAZ product page is the art station shader is better. That has nothing to do with Genesis. DAZ could do better with its out of the box shaders in general, they're hit and miss depending on the character.  What's been done with the new "PBR Shader" so far isn't much (if any) of an improvement over what people have been getting out of the Uber shader. V8.1's shader is pretty good, but I haven't seen any other character shaders built on the "PBR Shader" that have been noteworthy.

While we're at it, the lip texture map for this Cleopatra product doesn't seem to match the lip sculpt - how does a thing like that make it through QA (at art station or here)?

Not only that, but I honestly think the new shader is a step backwards from the Uber Shader. Yes, we have a couple new cool things, but their benefit is outweighed by the loss of the sss that can be achieved with the older shader. Why they removed that flexibility is beyond me.  

WendyLuvsCatz

I exported the Unreal one and the additional textures it missed

but of course in DAZ it's one lump, was easier than many I tackled though

Wolfwood

Oso3D said:

Wolfwood said:

Oso3D said:

If you don't like the look of Cleopatra and prefer Twosret... you could always just use Twosret shape but skin and everything as Cleopatra.

So, considering that the "main figure" is the most expensive item in the bundle (as with all DO main releases) people that don't like it would be basically overpaying for an already expensive bundle.

The main figure includes a shape, makeup, and skin texture. So the shape is a fraction of the figure item.

I don't think it's a particularly expensive bundle as far as bundles go, but hey, if you don't like it, then ok.

 

If you consider (for example) that 7 items from this bundle have more value than 11+ items from average PRO Bundle then fine. Many people feel that way.

But a lot of people feel they get a lot less: 1 hair less 2 outfits less, 2 character less. On the plus? An environment  and maybe one of the other two items (depending against what bundle you compare and if the user likes expressions/poses). That's more Less than Plus.

 

In any case, this inspired me to do a more fair/easier comparison for core bundles and it certainly shows how bad current bundles/offers are.

WARNING: Bellow this point, there is math. Any reader ofended by the sorcery that can be replicated with a little a app called "Calculator", be advised.

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here"

Let's forget for a moment previous release promos (leave that for latter). Instead of starting with all the perks lost i will calculate what would cost other bundles and its price/item if they shared the same promotion as of today, very interesting results:

For today's discount i will consider 50% discount buying a second "MAD" item, 30% PC+ and 10% key item (i think it was a free item recently so most people have it). So, 0.5x0.7x0.9 = 0.315 (or 68.5%)

Good old G8 PRO Bundle: $134.95 x 0.315 = 42.51 (While some have 12 or more items, i will count only 11 items): $3.86

Starter Bundle: $89.95 x 0.315 = $28.33 (6 items): $4.72

Millawa 8 Cyber Mission Bundle: $126.95 x 0.315 = $39.99 (8 items): $5

Juan Carlos 8 Streets of Cyberpunk Bundle: $149.95 x 0.315 = $47.23 (9 items): $5.2

Victoria 8.1 University Bundle: $149.95 x 0.315 = $47.23 (10 items, not counting vellus as that was controversial): $4.72

Victoria 8.1 Loving Life Bundle: $139.95 x 0.315 = 44.08 (9 items, not counting vellus as that was controversial): $4.9

Michael 8.1 Campus Life Bundle: $164.95 x 0.315 = $51.96 (10 items): $5.2

Torment 8.1 Temptations Bundle: $137.95 x 0.315 = $43.45 (8 items): $5.43

Torment 8.1 Hell On Wheels Bundle: $142.95 x 0.315 = $45.03 (8 items): $5.63

White Priestess Spell Caster Bundle: $123.95 x 0.315 = $39.04 (7 items): $5.58

White Priestess Enchantment Bundle: $113.95 x 0.315 = $35.89 (6 items): $5.98 

Cleopatra's Ancient Treasure Bundle: $122.95 x 0.315 = $38.73 (7 items): $5.53

These last two are basically "stater" bundles but are priced closer to what a pro bundle cost. And we need to note that individual items did not suffer a price increase (at least noticeable) to justify the new core bundle structure / prices.

Now we can add again the lost perks, we went....

From: $3.86 per item + credit/free items + extra BIG discounts + one purchase to be made in 5 to 7 days (before promotion runs out, no need to hurry) + having just to own "some" of those bundles to be considered a customer worth of something.

To: Over $5.5 per item (average), no credits, no free items or extra (noticeable) discount. Need to buy the first small bundle on release date in the hope to get a discount for the second small bundle to compensate buying the same figure TWICE. And having to purchase everything like clockwork on release to MAYBE get an extra discount on the next release for being a "good" customer.

 

Note: In case my post attracts some white knights i want to make a couple things clear. This is a comparison considering someone "likes/values" an equal (or similar) percentage of things from each bundle. If someone only like 3 from 11 in a Pro bundle, and 5 of 7 in in the newer ones, then obviously the the value for that person is different. Also, considering that not all items have the same stock price, i don't want to repeat myself and i have already made comparisons of raw/stock price of individual items in the newer bundles against the PRO ones, demonstrating that the problem is in the "bundle discount" here is an example: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/6410671/#Comment_6410671

 

 

MelissaGT

Gr00vus said:

I struggled for a while with the new "PBR Shader" but I got stuck trying to get control of specular the way I'm used to with the Uber shader. That might be more a function of me sucking at working with the Dual Lobe Specular settings, but for the life of me I could only increase the specular effect a tiny bit. For instance, it seems Fresnel isn't an option for the Top Coat in the new shader. I loved Fresnel. I've given up working with the new shader until I can see someone such as yourself or one of the other talented shader manipulators get something better from it than the results achieved with the Uber shader.

Totally unrelated question - where do you get vascular and/or subdermal maps you use to construct your custom translucency maps?

melissastjames said:

Gr00vus said:

Only difference I see between that art station render and the 21st promo render on the DAZ product page is the art station shader is better. That has nothing to do with Genesis. DAZ could do better with its out of the box shaders in general, they're hit and miss depending on the character.  What's been done with the new "PBR Shader" so far isn't much (if any) of an improvement over what people have been getting out of the Uber shader. V8.1's shader is pretty good, but I haven't seen any other character shaders built on the "PBR Shader" that have been noteworthy.

While we're at it, the lip texture map for this Cleopatra product doesn't seem to match the lip sculpt - how does a thing like that make it through QA (at art station or here)?

Not only that, but I honestly think the new shader is a step backwards from the Uber Shader. Yes, we have a couple new cool things, but their benefit is outweighed by the loss of the sss that can be achieved with the older shader. Why they removed that flexibility is beyond me.  

For my own personal use, I was lucky enough to score the AJC blood vessel maps before they disappeared from the interwebz (I can't find them anymore)(and I converted them to work with males too, giggity). BUT...I'm actually in the process of writing an article on my skin shader tweaks that will go into building/improving an sss map, and you will still get extremely good results even without those specific blood vessel maps. I'll go over editing the maps directly in Photoshop. I can't say when it will be done, but I'm working on it!  

WendyLuvsCatz

the base figure has veins

My DAZ 3D Library\Runtime\textures\DAZ\Characters\Genesis8\FemaleBase the maps for Subsurface Scattering

Wonderland

melissastjames said:

Wonderland said:

Decided to pass because the deal is bad and although I like everything in the bundle, I don’t like the new G8.1 shaders and don’t know if there’s a way to remove it and use the old iRay shaders. I think the skin looks weird on all the G8.1 characters I’ve seen so far except maybe V8.1 which I didn’t purchase.  Most of my renders are non-realistic so I can photoshop over it but I don’t even like the way it reflects (or doesn’t reflect) light...  

I also agree that people who purchased one of the White Priestess bundles or ALL of previous Egyptian bundles should have a banner deal or even a general deal for everyone like they used to have. Sticking to $2.99 items for now...

I agree about the PBR Shader. I...I really don't like it. You can convert the skin to the Uber shader...but it does take a bit of work. Here you can see I've converted Vicky 8.1 to the Uber Shader - 

 

That looks great! I'm thinking I'm not going to purchase any more G8.1 characters unless it comes with a choice of the Uber Shader. I have waaaaaay more than enough characters anyway. I'm really noy impressed by G8.1 at all.

Frinkky

Gr00vus said:

Only difference I see between that art station render and the 21st promo render on the DAZ product page is the art station shader is better. That has nothing to do with Genesis. DAZ could do better with its out of the box shaders in general, they're hit and miss depending on the character.  What's been done with the new "PBR Shader" so far isn't much (if any) of an improvement over what people have been getting out of the Uber shader. V8.1's shader is pretty good, but I haven't seen any other character shaders built on the "PBR Shader" that have been noteworthy.

While we're at it, the lip texture map for this Cleopatra product doesn't seem to match the lip sculpt - how does a thing like that make it through QA (at art station or here)?

The model on artstation is objectively better; the primary issues I see in the Daz store is the HD element appears to be made for a different base model - look at the line around the ala (nose wing), as does the vermilion border (the sharp boundary between the lips and the surrounding face). The lacrymals are also, as is typical with G8, less defined.

Regarding the "PBR Shader" - the shader itself is fine, as is the Uber shader. However, if the textures used are subpar the results will also be subpar (SISO - eh, crap in crap out)... Daz itself is generally hit or miss on texture quality, most PAs produce subpar textures - virtually any image posted in the forums (especially the realism threads) is accompanied by some disclaimer by the poster that they have reworked textures, often considerably.

Regarding the lip texture map not matching the sculpt, most peoples dont't in real life either... the vermilion border marks the transition between normal skin and lip skin - quite often that transition is not 'clean'. Just search Google/Bing images for "vermilion border". This difference can also be accentuated when makeup is used, and especially when lipstick is purposefully applied to alter the apparent shape of the lips.

Frinkky

Gr00vus said:

I struggled for a while with the new "PBR Shader" but I got stuck trying to get control of specular the way I'm used to with the Uber shader. That might be more a function of me sucking at working with the Dual Lobe Specular settings, but for the life of me I could only increase the specular effect a tiny bit. For instance, it seems Fresnel isn't an option for the Top Coat in the new shader. I loved Fresnel. I've given up working with the new shader until I can see someone such as yourself or one of the other talented shader manipulators get something better from it than the results achieved with the Uber shader.

Totally unrelated question - where do you get vascular and/or subdermal maps you use to construct your custom translucency maps?

Try turning off Specular Occlusion, if it's on. It can make things a little dry when using maps not specifically designed for the PBR Shader (eg, AO maps for use in Specular Occlusion). Alternatively, try slotting in the specular maps in to Specular Occlusion's Ambient Occlusion Weight, but you may need to increase contrast so the dark areas are nearly black the pores are white.

I think you'll find that Fresnel is the model used for top coat specular as it is physically correct* - what you won't find (that I abused) custom curve and the other methods.

*some documentation from Daz would really go a long way...

Mark_e593e0a5

Thanks @Wolfwood for the comparison. For me it seems that the bundle is basically made from "leftovers". All the SKU's for the individual items are in the 73xxx range, with the exception of the main character. If you check the previous Egypt themed bundles (e.g. Khemsit or Twosret), their bundle SKU and most product SKUs are in the same range. Given the quality e.g. from the Egyptian Oasis, I am supprised that these items did not make it into one of the previous bundles.

MimicMolly

Mark_e593e0a5 said:

Thanks @Wolfwood for the comparison. For me it seems that the bundle is basically made from "leftovers". All the SKU's for the individual items are in the 73xxx range, with the exception of the main character. If you check the previous Egypt themed bundles (e.g. Khemsit or Twosret), their bundle SKU and most product SKUs are in the same range. Given the quality e.g. from the Egyptian Oasis, I am supprised that these items did not make it into one of the previous bundles.

Just a guess here, but Cleo probably took a very long time to convert into a G8.1F. Then, her headdress and collar were added to one of the outfits (which is the only thing I've bought from this bundle.) And of course, they had to wait to release the "remake Victoria" first.

Thyranq

Is it just me, or does she have like a constant cross-eyed look?

I set up a scene with her last night, and I had to offset the 'side-to-side' on one of the eyes by like 30% to make it look like both her eyes were looking at the same thing.

MelissaGT

WendyLuvsCatz said:

the base figure has veins

My DAZ 3D Library\Runtime\textures\DAZ\Characters\Genesis8\FemaleBase the maps for Subsurface Scattering

Yeah, those maps are actually for monochromatic sss. By comparison, Victoria 7 has the best vessel detail and I use her maps quite frequently when customizing and building out new chromatic sss with blending, etc.  

MelissaGT

Frinkky said:

Gr00vus said:

Only difference I see between that art station render and the 21st promo render on the DAZ product page is the art station shader is better. That has nothing to do with Genesis. DAZ could do better with its out of the box shaders in general, they're hit and miss depending on the character.  What's been done with the new "PBR Shader" so far isn't much (if any) of an improvement over what people have been getting out of the Uber shader. V8.1's shader is pretty good, but I haven't seen any other character shaders built on the "PBR Shader" that have been noteworthy.

While we're at it, the lip texture map for this Cleopatra product doesn't seem to match the lip sculpt - how does a thing like that make it through QA (at art station or here)?

Regarding the "PBR Shader" - the shader itself is fine, as is the Uber shader. However, if the textures used are subpar the results will also be subpar (SISO - eh, crap in crap out)... Daz itself is generally hit or miss on texture quality, most PAs produce subpar textures - virtually any image posted in the forums (especially the realism threads) is accompanied by some disclaimer by the poster that they have reworked textures, often considerably.

The big thing preventing me from wanting to use the new shader is the lack of scatter and transmit settings. I'm not much of a fan of the new specular technique, but that can be worked around. The lack of scatter and transmit can't.  

Gr00vus

I"ve been hoping you'd publish something like that for a while.Please put a post in the form here in big bold letters when you do! 

melissastjames said:

Gr00vus said:

I struggled for a while with the new "PBR Shader" but I got stuck trying to get control of specular the way I'm used to with the Uber shader. That might be more a function of me sucking at working with the Dual Lobe Specular settings, but for the life of me I could only increase the specular effect a tiny bit. For instance, it seems Fresnel isn't an option for the Top Coat in the new shader. I loved Fresnel. I've given up working with the new shader until I can see someone such as yourself or one of the other talented shader manipulators get something better from it than the results achieved with the Uber shader.

Totally unrelated question - where do you get vascular and/or subdermal maps you use to construct your custom translucency maps?

melissastjames said:

Gr00vus said:

Only difference I see between that art station render and the 21st promo render on the DAZ product page is the art station shader is better. That has nothing to do with Genesis. DAZ could do better with its out of the box shaders in general, they're hit and miss depending on the character.  What's been done with the new "PBR Shader" so far isn't much (if any) of an improvement over what people have been getting out of the Uber shader. V8.1's shader is pretty good, but I haven't seen any other character shaders built on the "PBR Shader" that have been noteworthy.

While we're at it, the lip texture map for this Cleopatra product doesn't seem to match the lip sculpt - how does a thing like that make it through QA (at art station or here)?

Not only that, but I honestly think the new shader is a step backwards from the Uber Shader. Yes, we have a couple new cool things, but their benefit is outweighed by the loss of the sss that can be achieved with the older shader. Why they removed that flexibility is beyond me.  

For my own personal use, I was lucky enough to score the AJC blood vessel maps before they disappeared from the interwebz (I can't find them anymore)(and I converted them to work with males too, giggity). BUT...I'm actually in the process of writing an article on my skin shader tweaks that will go into building/improving an sss map, and you will still get extremely good results even without those specific blood vessel maps. I'll go over editing the maps directly in Photoshop. I can't say when it will be done, but I'm working on it!  

Gr00vus

Thatnks for these tips. I'll give them a shot. 

Frinkky said:

Gr00vus said:

I struggled for a while with the new "PBR Shader" but I got stuck trying to get control of specular the way I'm used to with the Uber shader. That might be more a function of me sucking at working with the Dual Lobe Specular settings, but for the life of me I could only increase the specular effect a tiny bit. For instance, it seems Fresnel isn't an option for the Top Coat in the new shader. I loved Fresnel. I've given up working with the new shader until I can see someone such as yourself or one of the other talented shader manipulators get something better from it than the results achieved with the Uber shader.

Totally unrelated question - where do you get vascular and/or subdermal maps you use to construct your custom translucency maps?

Try turning off Specular Occlusion, if it's on. It can make things a little dry when using maps not specifically designed for the PBR Shader (eg, AO maps for use in Specular Occlusion). Alternatively, try slotting in the specular maps in to Specular Occlusion's Ambient Occlusion Weight, but you may need to increase contrast so the dark areas are nearly black the pores are white.

I think you'll find that Fresnel is the model used for top coat specular as it is physically correct* - what you won't find (that I abused) custom curve and the other methods.

*some documentation from Daz would really go a long way...

Thyranq

I actually quite like her. Her morph is a bit too stylized for my general taste, but sometimes I like to do something different. Her texture looks half decent applied to a 'regular' character, too.

 

Here's my first spin testing her out:

 

 

Full size, and list of items in the gallery

blaz

outrider42 said:

If you ask me these Artstation conversions are really showing how behind the Genesis platform has become. The original versions are so much better it is not funny. They lose a lot of detail in the conversion to Genesis. While it may be true that any conversion is going to lose a little detail, I think the rust on Genesis is starting to show quite badly here.

Also, Daz seriously needs some more in house talent rather than depending on buying from 3rd parties so much. People who can not only help create characters, but also lend a hand in designing the next generation Genesis. Daz desperately needs Genesis 9 to be drop dead amazing, or they will face severe consequences, potentially falling out of favor like Poser. I do not think I am being overly dramatic, 3D tech moves fast and the battles are not fair. You either innovate or die. Daz has been around some 20 years, and that is swell, but there is no guarantee whatsoever they will be around for another 10. Blender just released a new update for Make Human, something that is free. This may sound harsh, but I believe Daz needs a kick to the rear if they want to be around the next decade. Consider this some tough love. I say these things not out of malice but because I believe that they can be better.

Just look at this character on Artstation, and compare this to the character we got, and judge for yourselves.

Took me a whole day, but I think I managed to make something comparable. I had to edit the shader and texture maps. The shape is a bit different and the skin has less details but with a little more work I don't think the Genesis version would be inferior.

The only post work I did was to raise brightness.

Still, this was the most disappointing DO purchase I ever made.

blaz

And default Cleopatra...

N-RArts

Thyranq said:

I actually quite like her. Her morph is a bit too stylized for my general taste, but sometimes I like to do something different. Her texture looks half decent applied to a 'regular' character, too.

 

Here's my first spin testing her out:

 

 

Full size, and list of items in the gallery

 

Beautiful! 

gsil247

Well this sucks for those who already bought Cleo 8.1. Daz is offering a $20 voucher for people who buy this new bundle which includes Cleo 8.1. I feel bad for you guys. 

Sevrin

gsil247 said:

Well this sucks for those who already bought Cleo 8.1. Daz is offering a $20 voucher for people who buy this new bundle which includes Cleo 8.1. I feel bad for you guys. 

They get an additional discount, as well.

Rod Wise Driggo

Still, I'm getting annoyed with DAZ math. Bundle is at 79% / $27 for me. Feels too expensive as I already owen the Python and Akenathen already. Those two give an extra 10% on the bundle. But owning two of nine items giving only 10% (not taking Cleo into account) sounds wrong, especially when this is discountet at the end so we are talking about a - let's say - 4$ saving. $27 for 6 items (where 1 is a cheap texture pack and two are pose packs) makes me "Hmm".

Silvere

Rod Wise Driggo said:

Still, I'm getting annoyed with DAZ math. Bundle is at 79% / $27 for me. Feels too expensive as I already owen the Python and Akenathen already. Those two give an extra 10% on the bundle. But owning two of nine items giving only 10% (not taking Cleo into account) sounds wrong, especially when this is discountet at the end so we are talking about a - let's say - 4$ saving. $27 for 6 items (where 1 is a cheap texture pack and two are pose packs) makes me "Hmm".

I'm getting 10% Off for only owning the Python. "Python OR Akenathen"

But yeah, seems iffy that you only get 10% if you have both of them

watchdog79

I am utterly shocked by the contents of the second bundle. You know, the one named Cleopatra's Royal Vizier, suggesting a male, as it is is a second bundle, following a female one?

Let us see what is in the bundle. Whooping 4 out of 11 items are for males, but one is an old character and one is the anatomical elements. That makes it only two new male items, an outfit and textures for it:

1x female character (new, but in the last bundle too)

1x female make-up

1x female hair

1x female poses

1x female poses for a prop in the bundle (python)

1x morphing python prop (which does not even list Daz Studio as compatible software)

1x male character (old)

1x male outfit

1x male outfit textures

1x male anatomical elements (anyone with a male Genesis 8 Pro bundle has this)

1x female anatomical elements (anyone with a female Genesis 8 Pro bundle has this)

 

Dear Daz. No thanks. That is not an offer I would ever consider for the price. Not even with the 25% off for owning the first bundle banner.

WendyLuvsCatz

well at least Akhenaten was cheap today because of it so I grabbed him

Sera

I don't buy bundles but I was hoping there would be a new Egyptian male so I could pick him up later. I'm not a fan of Akhenaten's chin, but that's just me. I know men don't sell as well but wow...Is the quantity of male items being released actually going down?