A question about useful threads
Chohole
Posts: 33,604
as the thread title says this is A question about useful threads
Is it worth while making a sticky thread with links to threads which haves asked questions that many may wonder about and then provide soultions, hints and tips in response to the question.
Threads like this one
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/22306/
I know people aren't keen on too many sticky threads, but thought it may be useful, and there did used to be a similar thread in the old Bryce forum
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Given that the forum search is "weak" I think it would be very useful to try and build a list of such threads to save people the time of trawling through all the past topics.
Oh yes, it certainly is. Because some marvels are now buried deep down in the history I compiled a very few to PDFs I host on my site. The search is indeed almost unusable (In the store as well).
I think this would be a very good idea Cohole.
OK so if people just happen across any useful threads can they link them here in this thread, and then later they can be made into some sort of logical list in a fresh thread.
Sounds like a very good idea to me too.
My five cents: it won't work. For 3 reasons.
1) Newbies are impatient and self-serving. Cruel, but the rule. Newbies (and I'm talking topic-level as well as the-entirety-of-Bryce level) are not only new to Bryce, they're new to the forum. In a perfect world people WOULD go through the stickies, memorise them, and march on. However, the on-going parade of WHY DOESN'T BRYCE WORK ON MY MAC???" questions, despite the stickies, over the last 4 years should illustrate this concept. It's enough to be frustrated by any point on Bryce: it's doubly testing to then learn the protocols of a little-used forum and wade through a lot of irrelevant banter to get to a manual-esque answer. Newbies choose to have the mountain come to them: ask a question again, rather than do the research.
2) Tags and Likes. Posts that help users should get 'vote-up's and 'vote-down's for post quality, 'useful's and 'unuseful's for help quality and tag words to help searchers. This forum doesn't have any system like that, so relevant posts become harder to target.
3) As well-intentioned as they are, Stickies are among the least helpful resource in most forums. Especially for regular users, who just watch their screens tank up with stickies before they get to the current stuff. They're generally unhelpful because they're not maintained correctly: adding a post after the main body of a sticky lets people know the sticky's been updated, but for the Newbie, the message received is that 'the story keeps changing, and you have to read all of these amendments that countermand some of the stuff written in the first post before you get to the truth."
A stream of uncategorised help posts is as helpful as a deeply researched, well documented dictionary... that is unalphabeticised.
This forum's strongest element is its contributing people. The sample link you provided had Rashad address some areas which helped, an offered hand from DB and the rest was basically vote-ups that the newbie has to wade through, in case Rashad's notes didn't directly address the newbie's concern.
Good luck Chohole, but I personally wouldn't advise you losing sleep over this :)
How about a Bryce FAQ? (or maybe there's already one out there somewhere.) This would solve part of the problem Oroboros mentioned by having ONLY the final answer to each question (which can be edited if it turns out it is incorrect, incomplete, or unclear), plus perhaps it could be organized in a meaningful way rather than being a random list, and while it won't help with brand new people, lazy people, or forgetful people, it is something that the new-to-this-but-not-new-to-FAQ crowd might think to look for.
Hi Sean,
I think new users would be best directed to buy Horo Wernli's and David Brinnen's DVDs and training materials on Bryce.
There IS no FAQ on Bryce. the topics range from the rarely used to the incredibly specific. No questions are asked frequently, which puts the onus on a clear, complete, easy to follow manual. No manual has been done on Bryce that well since Real World Bryce 4 by Susan Kitchens and Victor Gavenda.
The advantage of video tutorials is the use of like medium. That is, you're using a visual medium for a visual tool. You can get lost in text, but watching a video, rewinding and pausing at key locations, serves as a far more comprehensive learning tool than a very thick book.
I've considered this for some time and I think the best way to do it is as follows. During the B7 development phase I had an idea to start a new class of threads called "IDD" (In Depth Discussion). IDD threads are technical threads dedicated to some technical aspect of Bryce rendering. I proposed several threads mostly related to the Labs such as:
User Interface (What the various buttons and options of the main viewport relate to)
Skylab
Light Lab
Tree Lab
Terrain Editor
Material Lab
Instance Lab
IBL Lab
True Ambience
Boolean Modeling
Import/ Export
etc....
The idea is to have one master sticky thread that would then provide links to the various IDD threads which themselves will not be stickies.
So in the case of Sean's question he would likely go to the main IDD sticky and follow the link to the Materials IDD thread.
When he arrives at the Material Lab thread he will see headings that correspond to the various sliders in the Material Lab. example
Diffuse Color Channel: blah blah blah........
Ambience Color Channel: blah blah blah....
Specular Color Channel:
Specular Halo Channel:
etc....
Someone, either myself or other community members with the understanding and the patience, would have provided a simple explanation no more than a paragraph of what each tool (slider) does and how it works. It could be updated as needed so its more like a wiki. This is very much like the manual, but in a forum presentation. Because of the sheer number of sliders the explanations might be separated into a couple of posts, but those first few posts of an IDD thread would have all the technical info needed to understand all of the tools of the given lab. Posts made later would be the part that is where the discussions take place. Discussions would be limited to the lab at hand lowering the likelihood of wasted posts.
So Sean would see the heading titled "Ambience" and he would read about how the channel works. He would see in print that the Skylab ambience color informs the material ambience slider. And he'd likely be on his way to solving his issue.
Now the question comes "how would Sean know to search the IDD threads in the first place?" Answer, he wouldnt. He'd probably start a thread about it or ask in someone else's thread. The point is, once the question was asked we would point him to the Sticky called "In Depth Discussions." We'd tell him to look at the Material Lab link and ask him to report back if his question wasn't already answered in the Material Lab thread.
The idea is to provide information in written form that is easier to find. I suspect that most questions from most new users could be answered easily just with the per slider breakdowns we'd place as the first posts of the IDD threads.
There would be little left to the imagination. One could learn from David and Horo's videos, or they could read the B7 official documentation, or they could search the IDD threads.
Best thing too is that the IDD threads can be updated as new understanding and new tools are added to Bryce during the next development phase (if it ever happens).
If we like the idea of IDD threads I will begin writing a few up. I'd probably start with the SkyLab or the Light Lab, and hopefully others could start other labs. Within a week we could have a wealth of info ready for the newbies. Ideas?
Having a sticky thread, an IDD, or the like, is a good idea. But it presumes those searching for answers to questions are curious enough to search out answers before asking questions. Too many times the same questions have appeared on the same page and the answers have been the same. If the same subject is on the same page, and people don't, or can't, see the question exists, how can if be believed they will visit a sticky thread? Of course, multiple questions could appear because those posting believe it isn't proper to hijack another's thread.
On the other hand, someone whose encountered a problem, or trying to learn, may be too frustrated to try and find an answer by scrolling through several pages of threads. Hoping against hope the answer they seek will have been posted. And if they're real new, they may not be aware of any tutorials, videos, or any other form(s) of help is available.
If something like this is created, whose going to make sure its kept up to date? Are there enough people, with the knowledge, who'd be willing to contribute? As it stands now, a question is asked, someone gives an answer. Would the same person be willing, or be able, to take the time to contribute to such a sticky thread?
This is my two cents on this subject.
There is none. What can be found is an incomplete WIP, over 2 years old. The AML (advanced motion lab) exists as blank pages. You know who wrote up which part of the doc at the time and what came of it. Months of time down the drain. The HTML doc for Bryce 6 still has it, but the link to the doc doesn't work anymore. If you hadn't downloaded it years ago, you're lost. What happened to the Bryce Tech Site - remember the email from October 2011?
This is the root of all questions: Bryce ships without a doc, there is no online doc, there is not even a reference book that can be purchased separately. This is lamentable. Videos, tutorials, memos, posts - they answer particular questions, show less obvious procedures to get some advanced look here or there. It is mandatory that Bryce gets a documentation. It is absolutely shameful that it hasn't. We answer the same questions over and over and over again - see Ouroboros above, his observations are spot on. If we had an official valid doc, we could just point to the appropriate paragraph for the lazy ones.
There is another sort of questions, like e.g. Sean's about the clouds, which a doc can never answer. That's where the forums come in. "I'm stuck here - I checked the docs, I can't see what's wrong." This is what I think would be worthwhile to have one sticky with links to the threads that cover such tricky questions, in the manner we have the Bryce Tutorials sticky.
Rashad, your proposition is a valiant one. Maintaining it would be a daunting task.
As frustrating as it may be answering the same questions over and over, maybe look upon it as lots of individual opportunities to engage with and encourage newbies.
As modest as they are David, Horo and others are well respected in Brycedom and when new members get personal replies from these knowledgeable people it does create a real community feel giving new members confidence that they are getting accurate and helpful information tailored directly to the problem they are experiencing. All the members here are friendly and supportive, not like other places on the web where newbies are mocked for asking "silly questions" and looked down on by the experienced users.
What annoys me most are the few who come and ask a question and after spending a fair amount of time answering it, they don't even say thank you and you've no idea if they've even come back to read it. Luckily that doesn't happen very often. :)
I like the idea, some threads will give answers to questions that are not easily recognised from the thread titles. although in the long run I imagine most of us agree that one to one communication in this kind of forum set-up is really it's backbone.
Personally I feel this place is a friendly place to come and spend a little time. and learn and help and have fun. not a clinic or a hospital,
@ The Savage As for any gratitude returns, I have thought about this and there may be many reasons for it, some I would not like to presume, we are only human mortals and fallible after all that.
After we select Bryce Disscussion from Communtity button on browser we should get into Categories page, similar to this page http://www.daz3d.com/forums/ :)
and i suggest making these categories if possible on bryce forum, such as :
Sky, Environment, Clouds, Space - including slabs
Trees and Vegetation
Terrains,Water, Ground, Gardening and Landscapes - (including related environment, rocks, textures, materials if necessary)
Abstract and Boolean art/modeling
Humans and Creatures - (including animals,zombies, vampires,demons, birds,dragons, butterflies, bugs, alien,horror,fantasy creatures, etc..etc including related textures/materials)
Buildings and Cities - (including alien, sci-fi , medieval cities or modern city art such as Waleed' renders/posts)
Miscellaneous Props - (such as cars, clothes,glass objects,statues, commercials, fruits, spaceships, ships, rocks,including Batllestar galatica ships, etc..etc)
Materials, Textures, Background images, HDR - (everything about applying textures and materials including maps/bumps,alpha channel fixes + HDR related)
Importing and Exporting objects (including send to/from DAZ Bridge) (including obj, fbx,3ds, etc related format posts)
Special FX and Lights - such as lenses, filters, smoke, fire,plasma, lights, volumetric lights, rays, dust, etc)
Rendering - tips and tricks, settings, rendering in a network
Bryce GALLERY - all the "Post your Bryce renders" parts including upcoming parts
Technical issues - bugs, crashes, launcher problems, etc..
Then move/categorize the threads and i think the new members will post questions or find easily answers on the related category :)
Every forum section DAZ, Carrara , Hexagon, Bryce , should have a Categories page, looks there is similar problem on every application forum not only Bryce :)
When someone has a problem, should use the search box first - that's my opinion, anyway. So the risk of duplicate questions would diminish, even if the titles are not so obvious.
Interesting idea, cris. This is a very successful format that several applications and machines has used for decades.
This is called a manual :)
You're inviting people to opensource a manual.... For, at best guesstimate... 5-10 original queries in this forum a week. Ambitious :D
I'm sorry: I don't mean to be condescending. 'Ideal worlds' is what Bryce is all about and creating an ideal world instructional/problem-solving system is a natural extension of this mindset.
I'm currently being paid to be a technical writer (not for DAZ). I write manuals and create instructional aids for a living, so this particular topic is an interesting combination of work and play.
Open source manuals can be very successful. But they require a level of commitment and passion from several people, not just one. The task doesn't stop at the writing – that's the easy bit! The content should be reviewed and assessed for communicative ease. Pictures need to be assessed to assure clarity. It's a big job.
... It's also a largely redundant one. In a post above, I talked about 'like medium'. Using a book to learn yoga, nevermind how detailed the pictures are, is never as effective as being physically trained by someone. Why? Because your poses and focus is constantly under revision, and you develop 'muscle memory'. Teaching how to mix sound in a digital audio workstation through a written manual is also a struggle. The best you can do is learn the theory and actions of the knobs, and possibly best practice. Likewise, Learning Bryce through a written manual is daunting. But watching experts-at-coaching walk through the steps in real time while narrating is an exceptionally comprehensive way to learn.
The best series of video tutorials for an application I've ever seen, FOR ANYTHING, is Neal Hirsig's 3D Blender course, right here:
http://gryllus.net/Blender/3D.html
His lessons are scripted, comprehensive, easily-paced and aimed at a specific beginner-intermediate level. There's not a lot of 'flavour' to his lessons - to be frank, they're pretty dry. However if you view these lessons as an online manual where you want to cut to the chase and find out about a particular feature in Blender, this should be your first call. Mouse movements are deliberate and purposeful. There are no mistakes or back-tracks. The lessons have direction and no shortcuts or presumed knowledge.
I would like Bryce to have lessons like Neal's.
Interesting idea, cris. This is a very successful format that several applications and machines has used for decades.
This is called a manual :)
You're inviting people to opensource a manual.... For, at best guesstimate... 5-10 original queries in this forum a week. Ambitious :D
I'm convinced there are more questions than people are posting. I look at other forums and see people asking questions they should be asking here. I'm not sure why so many Bryce users don't really get over here but they should try to make the effort.
In every way I agree that in the end we are open sourcing the manual. The like medium approach has its obvious benefits, and I'd say that David and Horo;s videos are moving in that direction. But already I can see a trend here where there are so many videos to watch that at one point searching videos becomes a daunting task of its own. Some videos are longer and others shorter, but when you need an answer such as that of Sean required the other day seems to me a quick reference paragraph could be useful.
On a side note I am delighted to read about your position with the IT firm. Who would've known that the Bryce Interface thread would lead to an actual employment for you? Your ideas on the interface are stunning and I hope most or all of it makes it into the next release.
Welp... This isn't a fault in the medium. This is more about audience targeting. YouTube is littered with 'tutorials' that don't actually tutor anybody. They just show people how to get through specific problems. And even then, they don't cover off subtle eventualites, troubleshooting, etc.
Trying to come up with tutorials to cover off every specific thing about software requires a lot more thought than most people interested in putting tutorials together are willing to put in. Sometimes, fantastic users aren't the best educators. It requires disciplines that aren't really used often, like not getting side-tracked, knowing when to stop talking and just show, adding call-outs, moving the mouse deliberately, with purpose, rather than flicking it around the screen and backtracking like a fly settling on your favourite dish.
I've been able to be a technical writer for quite sometime :) My core skillset is writing and sound production: graphics and animation is kind of a 'professional sideline' :D The Bryce Interface thread was a diversion in some downtime, but yes, it did help create an avenue of R&D into UI that has helped develop a language I use in my current position.
I believe it is so much more encouraging and beneficial for anyone to communicate here, ask a question and it is answered. In a few lines of text we are able to get feedback and encouragement, from the best. The tutorials published and the advice given here in this place by the members I believe is the best available.You want to teach people, then you have to talk to them, that is what is happening right now and right here on this web page.
Unfortunately Tapioca, the people here leave. Questions are being answered by the same people over and over again. What happens when these people go? Or even slow down on checking in to see what's happening?
I only answer questions about animation and modelling, really. This thread's an oddity.
Yes, and thank you for that. There weren't animation answers without Oro.
All feels horribly familiar to me. I can't even finish my own thoughts sometimes without being sidetracked. Just "showing" is difficult, because I am compelled to focus on the reason not the results. Though adding call-outs is simple enough (I guess thought that's thanks to Camtasia Studio making life easier for me). And the mouse pointer has a life of its own, it start moving towards controls before I've voiced the conscious thought that that's the control I want to use next.
That aside even if a set of perfect tutorials were available it still wouldn't solve what I believe is one of the main difficulties for people. That using rendering software requires both some interest and understanding of art and also an ability to grapple with some moderately technical stuff. Having mixed with both artists and engineers in my time, generally speaking, there's not always that much crossover between these two disciplines.
And if you are lucky enough to have a good grasp of the technical side or rendering, or the artistic side of making art - you might still be disappointed to discover you are going to make images like a novice because you don't have the necessary understanding of the "other side" of things.
Plenty of people want to run before they can walk. And who can blame them? But by doing so they make life difficult for themselves and can soon become discouraged.
And I don't know what the answer to that is.
Well, there are forumites who have read the answers to the same questions several times and they start to answer them. So the knowledge passes on ...
And I had proof positive of this point just today when I saw a thread in another forum, made by an old member who hadn't visited for a while. He asked a question about something on how the website behaves and it was answered by a new user.
I think it's a good idea. The sheer number of times people ask about geografting (for example) would make it nice to be able to say "look!" and move on rather than hunting through the archive for it. The forum search has some shortcomings in that area.
It would probably be nice if you got started on it then :)
There are many laws on the Internet. Two of them are:
1) Good ideas are for other people to do.
2) Suggesting an idea is exactly the same thing as doing all the hard work other people did to make it happen.
I would ask all those wonderful people interested in developing this idea of helpful stickies to turn discussion into action immediately. Sadly, I'm afraid I'm too jaded to see how anything like this could possibly work (see my first post), but if you have questions about animation or modeling, fire away.
I'm cynical: not unhelpful :)
Well obviously, as it was me that asked, and I am nominally the Bryce moderator, I did expect to set the thread up an maintain it,
I am not in the habit of asking questions like this if I wasn't prepared to act on my own suggestion. :coolsmirk:
Actually my bad on that, because I didn't notice the thread was in the Bryce section and all my tutorials are for DS. Oops. ;)
Sometimes we have to settle for the "something is better than nothing" way of thinking. While threads aren't ideal instructors, they might prove to be better than nothing. I probably will start an IDD Thread or two over the next couple of days. To me this is the way I can see myself contributing. Whether the threads will be visited is another issue. I'm not going to concern myself with it too much right now.