why does 8 look like 3? why lower poly, when we had the decimator?
Elspath
Posts: 180
really, really dislike 7 an 8 models. they all look really really bad, (they look like the vick 3 model in a lot of cases) an some shapes/characters aren't compatible, despite daz saying 8 would be. loaded gen 8 female, an low and behold, none of my shapes i purchased work with her. none of my characters do either. creating content for games is fine. but not at the expense of destroying quaility of how 5, an 6 and some 4 characters looked. rigging sucks still as well. tried four different hair sets. all have to be tweaked by the user to work. thats shoddy craftsmanship guys n gals. theres zero reasons 5 an 6 models, along with G3, couldin't be slightly updated to fit "all" props, hair, an clothing, rather than this 8 crap. nodes are all that would have to be added/changed. low poly is fine, as long as they still "look good." some of us are using it for games, prints, "and" comics. there needs to be content for both. not just catering to one set of people. i also don't want to have to buy all new shapes and characters, i liked the older ones. and worked to be able to purchase them. they should all work with 8. from at least vick 5, on up.
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Comments
Why lower poly for G8? A good question. I'd be very interested to hear from DAZ3d as to why they are reducing the base resolution of their figures. Doubtless higher rez figures require more computing power, but computing power, especially of graphics cards (which are doing the bulk of the work these days), is increasing rapidly. So reducing poly rez to save computing resourses is a very weak argument. I would sincerely like to know the main reasons for the trend to lower rez figures, especially when lower rez base figures comes at the cost of reduced morph resolution (for the normal DAZ client).
Remember that part of the reduction is the removal of the lash and tear geometry
I have brought G8F into zBrush and manipulated her topology with move brush and experimented with fiber mesh on her too. I see no huge challenges or stumbling blocks working with her poly count.
I will admit I was skeptical at first, jumping on board, but having actually used the model in zBrush squelched any doubts I had.
What I really like that I can use Sim Tenero’s randomizer and RiverSoftArt’s Pose Randomizer with Genesis 8 equally as I did with Genesis 3.
And I am looking forward to Handspun Studios and Thorne coming out with their morph kits, which are always great.
In my opinion, I think Daz has done a great job with Genesis 8.
A valid point Richard, but it doesn't answer the question of why is there a move towards less geometry (available to the normal user) rather than more. Computing power via GPU's has increased dramatically in recent years, easily able to cope with doubling the number of polygons, or trippling it to bring the Genesis figures back to the level of V4. Our computers coped with V4/M4 well enough back when V4/M4 were new. Modern computers would easily cope. I don't dispute that sub-division on the fly is a more efficient method than fixed polygon figures, but I find this unacceptable when it comes at the cost of the vast majority of users not having access to sub-division when it comes to making their own morphs. One can hardly be blamed for thinking that DAZ are creating a two tier system. The normal user who has to make do with an ever deminishing base resolution and the elite users (PAs) who have access to as much sub-division as they want or feel is necessary.
An advantage is that it is possible to get better bends by deforming a lower polygon mesh and then SubDing it, compared to working with a higher rsolution base mesh - for example, it avoids crunching on the inside of a bend.
To me the biggest advantage is the morphs just blend better. Beside pushing buttons and seeing wht happens I like to spin dials and see what I can create. I don't get the unsightly winkles and creases with the last two generations of Genesis like I did with earlier generations.
The same here; I find it amusing when folks complain about distortion in the figure that matches up with how a real person would in similar extreme poses.
Keep in mind too that not every user can afford the latest greatest graphic card to render with.
Out of curiousity, how much lower are the poly? To me, I think G8 looks better with the new features such as the new bends and muscle flexes. Is it a trick to the eye despite it being a lower poly? What are the disadvantages of G8 since it's a lower poly?
It's 280 polys less once you add in the lashes geometry.
With good edge flow and good morph construction, you can get good bending on even models with less geometry.
Thanks for the information. Just another quick question, do you know what the total poly count to both G3 and G8 is?
G4 = 17020 (with lashes)
G3F = 17418 (approximately)
Thanks. That's hardly a difference at all.
That's vertices. G3F is 17K polys which is what we normally go by. I already stated what G8F is (there is no G4).
ALL of the new models/character morphs look like 80 year olds. with deep cheek bones, and mouths that look like vick 3 and mike 3. skin thats blotchy. thicker eyebrows. gross. i make art with this. i could care less whether it bends well or not, as the poses were fine with vick five, six, an gen 3. the animation was fine as well, for both games and film. again. making it for gamers is great, but don't alinate the artists, an film makers as thats your bread an butter. not the games.
There are people that were getting tired of the "perfect plastic people" or "glamour models" so we're getting people with less than perfect appearances now. DAZ can't please everyone.
Seriously. Sheesh.
In their 80s! I'ld say in their mid 30s and like to party perhaps a little too much.
lol. ,..like it or not perfect plastic as you put it, sells advertising. this program is both a game "and" art program. marketing it for both helps. ads that are made from daz aren't going to be made with the current batch of shoddy looking character morphs. they want sexy. they want normal, but you can do that without having them look 38-84 years old. the polycount should not be a factor with todays game engines. easier yes, but that does not mean better. if a game character looks like crap, it's not going to matter about the polly count. the gamemaker isin't going to use them. especially when several game engines already have built in ways to lower the polly count.
Is Barbara Streisand 80 now?
Wow, Mrs & Mrs Kris Kringle have been proven to be such marketing failures.
lol. not in todays time. santa hasin't sold well for over two decades. still used? sure. but not very marketable outside of one holiday season, an even then, not as marketable as he once was. there was no reason for eight to be released at all. then to give low polycount for games as a reason is pathetic. then theres the fact that we still want all clothing, and props, from vick 3--current, to work and be compatible with all models. they said 8 would help with this. iv'e tried eight. doth not work, same probs as with seven and older gens. thats the only thing that needed fixing, and could be with a few minor tweaks not having to do with the polycount. which we had decimator for anyway, and most newer gen game engines have a decimator for polycount of their own. it's a crap reasoning for change, just for changes sake. gen 3 was fine. vick 5, an 6 were as well. the only changes to daz should be adding sculpting tools, cutting tools, an more art tools like a photoshop like feature within daz.
oh, and a new way to do raised 3d symbols, instead of just flat pics.
Unfortunately these are the same exact arguments we've seen every generation yet people are still making wonderful artwork. Also genesis has more polys than game engines; the engines themselves do the tricks that are done with genesis and an normal/displacement map to make you think there are more. A quick look on deviant art with the keywords xnlara will show you renders where people have taken game models out of those games you mentioned and made renders from. So my suggestion would to be patient as these complaints always go away during the version and the people that complain end up throwing praise. Happens EVERY generation.
I can confirm that Genesis V8 is better for animation than Genesis 3 & was tested on walkit v2 plugin. The bends our so much better and the foot bends have been fixed also, it is easyer to animate if your in to that sort of thing. Waiting for M8 now!!!
I make art with it too and , in my opinion, G8 looks more realistic, less "fake" The closer I can get to realism in my stuff, the better.
Why are you yelling?... er bolding and upsizing type?
Why are you yelling?... er bolding and upsizing type? I'm using 4k monitor, I can see it better!!!!
Most game engines use low resolution, multiple level of detail meshes, which may seem to be high poly until you look at each mesh individually. The ones sold over on Morph3D, for example, have a highest level resolution mesh that is the same polycount as the base resolution G3 figures. If they do anything to impact the polycount beyond code to switch levels of detail based on distance, it would likely be similar to the on the fly subdivision done in zBrush when sculpting meshes.
Yes, that's great. I like that kind of improvement, but not when it comes at the cost of reducing the ability of the average user to create high resolution morphs by sculpting the mesh, using his/her prefered technique. What is the point of making morphs work better, if you can't make as nice morphs.
My general point is; by all means reduce the base rez, but if you are going to do so, then allow ALL users the ability to sculpt morphs at the resolution they wish to use. I understand that the actual difference between G8 polycount and G3 polycount is small, but what concerns me is the constant downward trend combined with no access to sub-division of the hobbyist to sculpt morphs.
Nightwolf, you don't need the latest, most expensive graphics card. If you were able to render V4 when she came out then your old graphics card from back then will have no problem with G3 which has only 1/3 as many polys. Or if you are willing to splash out 50 bucks for a "new" older graphics card then it will still be way faster than your card from Poser 3 days.
Hi your walk it plugin for Daz studio Looks excellent
but many of us need to create other dynamic motions such as fighting.
and other physics.
Both G3&G8 are quite easy to animate in external programs
however neither figure will accept their own BVH motions
imported back to studio.
and once exported to FBX you Lose Both HD resolution and JCM's
Not an issue for those of us who render in external programs via MDDor Alembic
but the matter of better bends is largely moot for Daz studio users needing to import
Character motion from outside source to G3/G8.