making tops for my character shape of genesis

kitakoredaz

Hi,, this is MY questions topic to make simple bikkini top　:-P.

I have remade some clothings and shoes of other generation figure for genesis
with CCT and transfer utility I often reshape by hexagon for my morph shape.

now I try to make simple Bikkini tops by "fugazi video tutorilal" for my character shape.

I have made obj for my character shape first, which can fit my character almost perfectly.
and after transfer utility, I needed to reshape which can fit to basic genesis,
I overwrite the generated my character morph too.　

then,, I hope the tops can fit every pozing of my character.
I hope the ring of the tops can move with bone,,not follow other bone movement,,

I want to correct the shape change ugly when my character rotate bones around sholder , collar,,

In this time I will not make new morph for each joint movements to overwrite generated
JCM.

(I can do it, It is not difficult, but I think it is not best way for clothing.)

it is good chance to try gohst bone and ridgity grouping and learn good weight mapping
for me.

now I have many question ,so I need my question topic untill I will finish the tops,,
(I hope someone may help me ^^;)

quesiton NO 1. about " Face grouping name"

I understand I must assign every poligon of the figure to each face groups.

but is there any rule?

I think there is not much means to assign face group, after first rigging by transfer utility.

eg if I change all face group name , there seems not make difference,,

is it wrong?

when the clothing fit to "genesis" , how work the face group of the clothing?
if I set poligon to face group what happen?

is there any rule to assign face group for clothing of genesis?

Does face group name has relevance with joint moving or weight map?
(I think no,, there is no relevande,,)

so face group is important to select faces by the group name to use other tools?
(eg weight map brush toolt,,)

I hope someone teach me clearly why we need "face grouping" for making figure.
and how face group is work after i assigned them.

(maybe,, quesiton NO2 is, what happen when clothing "fit to" the figure(genesis)

How clothing can "fit to", what need for "fit to" , and how the bones change?

or about "ghost bones",,,)

Richard Haseltine

Grouping does not affect rigging in DS - if the item is moved to Poser it matters more, all polygons must be assigned to groups belong to actual bones. In DS groups are sued only for selecting by clicking in the viewport, though they can also be useful for weight assignment.

kitakoredaz

thank you first reply.:)

I thought so. but,, before in ds 4.5 beta, there is problem wrong projection template
about transfer utllity or auto-fit tool, it actually scattered face grouping.

then the figure (clothings) could not follow well when I just move bones with basic genesis shape.

so I think the face grouping have some meaning when move node(bone) which has same name of face groups

or it was about weight mapping problem when ds use the face grouping name for transfer weight mapping
from souce or template?:roll:

=============================

then,, next quesiton is about ghost bones.:coolsmile:

I will make ghost bones for this figure with the new face names.(I will delete them after weight mapping and rigg)
I plan to make bones (not need ghost bone?) for center ring and the part of jtoint to ring of left side only.

then I want to rig the parts of them keep the shape when I rotate or bend the coller of the figure.
and I hope to bend the ring and joint parts by rotating the bone freely.

so,,, where is best place to set new ghost bones? I check bones which is transfered form genesis,,
I think it is naturall to make new child bones parented with Right pectorilal,,
but is it better to parented Right collar or Right sholder?

and is there any rule to naming ghost bone, and what is real meaning of ghost bone?

if I do not assign any face group for the ghost bone .
just weight mapped , it become ghost bone?

I want to know, what is the diferende between ghost bones and another bones of clothings which fit to the genesis.

if it has not same name of genesis bone, that is ghost bone?
because the bone may not fit to genesis bone, and move free?

(I am not poser user, so I just want to know about the triax figure and genesis.
I have not time to learn about poser and parametric figures ,poser files from zero,,
so I decide just play with genesis in ds or use it in other 3d tools)

kitakoredaz

many rivers to cross untill finish the bikkini tops,,TT)

I want to clearfy about ERC freeze as generated morph and ghost bones too.

1) I had made my character morph FBMTKlady1.

2) it change the shape much around breast, so I used"adjust riggint to the shape"
then setted "ERC freeze" for the adjusted bone movements.

3)I do not know why need the option check off "restore figure rigging,"
but many men said so, and I think so too ^^;
(before I tried many times, but it can not work well, if I forget to check off the option)

4) I wear making tops on the genesis.

5) I made two new bones for the bikkini tops parented "Right pectoral"(transfered from genesis)

6) I thought if I change genesis shape with my FBMTKlady1,
the tops ( fit to genesis) rig can follow the genesis bone move.

actually, bones transfered from genesis (which has same name) can follow the rig change
when I apply the morph to genesis.

a)shape of genesis changed by FBMTKlady1

b) rigs (ERCfreezed) of genesis move by FBMTKlady1.

c) the rigs of tops (fit to genesis) follow the movements of genesis rigs.

d) the Right pectoral bone move too. so I thought child new bones
(joint ring) follow the movements of Right pectoral.

but,, It could not move. they keep the start position after the tops shape change to fit
my character.

7) I thought it may need "ERCFreeze" for auto generated morph (FBMTKlady1)
so keeping the tops shape with FBMTKlady1 generated ,I translated positon of new two bones
to where fit to the character shape, then ERC Freeze.

then question,, first I check off the option "restore figure rigging",
but it seems not work well.

so after that I checked on "restore figure rigging".

then saved modified assets.

now I think,, it can work. (or I missed something again ? @@;)

but what means these options for ERC freeze?

"restore figure rigging" and "restore figure". what and why we need these option?

and after I set ERC freeze for generated morph and rigs of the clothing fit to genesis,
when I save the figure or prop again, it seems not keep the ERC. though I checked before save it,,

so must I need to save the generated morph files (or save modified assets) again?
==============================

and I hooooooooope some kind men teach me about ghost bone question above,, ^^;

Richard Haseltine

If you don't restore the figure rigging then the joints will still be where you moved them to, and you will need to reset them yourself, Restoring the figure also zeroes your morph and any other morphs that may have been set (if you were using ERC Freeze to link morphs as well as or instead of using it to link joint adjustments to a morph).

The new bones won't have any effect until you weight them. You may get odd effects if you have the new bones affect vertices that aren't affected by the pectoral bones.

kitakoredaz

Thank you much richard,, then I want to confrim still,,

I hope when I set my morph "zero" , the joints of the clothing return where I set for genesis zero shape, (zero figure shape)
then when I set my morph "100%" to genesis,
the joints of the clothing must move the position where fit to the shape made by generated morph (character shape)

so about this case, if I ceck off "restore figure riggting" and ERC freeze , my morph and joints moving( I moved joints to fit my morph shape) I will need to reset the bone movements about zero shape ?

if it need to move my self again every time by joint editor,, it seems silly ^^;
or there is more easy way reset the joints movements by
ERCfreeze for zero shape?

actually I checked on " restore figure rigging"
is it right option in this case?

then,, when I set ERC freeze about my morph and joints movements of genesis,
I need "check off" restore figure rigging, you know many guys said so, and tutorial too.
but in this case, the genesis joints return to the position where fit to zero shape of genesis.

The new bones won’t have any effect until you weight them. You may get odd effects if you have the new bones affect vertices that aren’t affected by the pectoral bones.

yes, so next quesiton must be about weight map ^^;
first I need to set joints what I plan ,even if I will not use them for new problem.

I hope every advice or plan if you were I, about how to customoize is best for my bikkini ^^;

1 keep the ring and around area shape
2 can move the ring and joint area freely by joints (for special movements ^^;)
3 but need to fit the poze when move joints usually.
( so if genesis move pectoral, the wear must on genesis, not need special movements if I do not move it ^^;)

I setted weight map of ring and joints parts full about my new bones only. now I plan to adjust weight map the area for right pectorial.
I want to ask manythings about weight map . but it is difficult and hard work for me.

(I think understand only basic rule,, each vertices have weight map about each rotation , and the weight-map of one vertice
for each node sum must be "100 %"

so I want to ask how I can devine weight map for each node? it seems not they should be "Full" or "zero"

eg 50% for my new bones and 40% for right pectoral and 10% for right collar,,

and I think if I can adjust weight map by buldge weight map (I have never tweaked them,,)

or I have some other plan , rigidity map about rings,, so is there any advice?

I think other way too, I separate tops and rings. (that means make two figures , wear parts and joint parts,,
if it is best way? to keep the shape of ring and around, then move freely)

Richard Haseltine

1) you load your morph. The joint centres are now in the wrong place for the figure to bend well.

2) you adjust the rigging (joint centres) so that the figure does now bend well

3) you use ERC freeze to link the new position of the joint centres to the morph, choosing to restore the original rigging and shape

4) your figure is now in its default state

5) you dial up your morph, and the ERC links move the joint centres to match the morph as you set them in step 2

--------------------------------------------

When a bone, such as the ring, is a child of another, such as the pectoral, it will move and apply its weights when the parent bone is moved. That's why the limbs don't get left behind when the body is moved, and why the hands and feet move with the arms and legs. So you don't need to worry about having weights for the pectoral - any weight you apply to the ring is also applied to the pectoral as you have the skeleton arranged. Of course that means that the pectoral may now be affecting areas that it would not normally affect, which may give odd results. To be honest, most people handle undoing clothes with morphs rather than joints - you might want to look at that, or at using a mixture of morphs and joints.

kitakoredaz

thanks much rechard again :lol:

then,, I now understand option of ERC freeze, restore figure rigging and restore figure,,

but I can not clearly still,, if I check off "restore figure rigging", only check on restor figure,,

if I set so, the figure shape turn to zero but the figure rigging keep the positon?

and if I check on "restore figure rigging" (rigging turn to the position before I moved) only
and check off "restore figure" the figure keep the morph shape, and only rigging turn to zero?

(OK I may try by myself,, it may not happen bad things if I do not save them ^^;)

then,,

When a bone, such as the ring, is a child of another, such as the pectoral, it will move and apply its weights when the parent bone is moved.

mmm,,, I can understand only half,,, if parent bone moved, the child bone must move too .
( not concern about weight map, about joint rotate with parents)

but when parent bone rotate x 30 , the child bone may not rotate with same axis same degree
(it means not the child bone rotate too,, just move start positon of child bone with parent bone,,)
but it apply their wieght map for rotaitons? in this case the value must be full?

i feel stange about wieght map,, because there is no option for each translation,
eg, If I move hip bone not rotate just translate, but every figure vertices must move with the hip.

hip translate but never rotate I think @@;? in this case how weight map worked?

kitakoredaz

ah,, now I understand,,

every vertices of the figure move with root node translate or rotate as same as root move.

it does not concern about weight map.

weight map decide relative delta movements of the vertices from the points where they were when figure keep zero shape.
(it means no bone rotated )

then,, if parent rotate , every vertices will rotate same way which weight mapped by every child node.
there is no graduation of movements, eg I rotate sholder, must move every vertices rotate with same axis
and same degree which assigend weight map by child nodes. so ring must move same way when right prectorical move
how I assigned weight map for the ring,,

yeah,, I checked it already the ring move to right if I move right prectorical, though I did not assign weight map for the prectorical,,
I think if I can adjust them by buldge map,, or need to make JCM again,,after check every weight map,
after that I must need to adjust the movements by JCM if I use the ring joint,,^^;

(I have more question about auto generated JCM which I made for r-collar move of figure,,
it seems break my ring shape when r collar move,, can I keep the shape by ridgity grouping?)
next I will ask about ridgity group,,)

Richard Haseltine

Yes, a rigidity group serves to keep the shape intact with auto-generated morphs.

kitakoredaz

Hi,, above I said about weight map is wrong ^^;

but now I can understand (maybe) parents node, child node, and each weight map how work ,,

then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yes I want to set ridigity group for ring parts.

now I copied the bikkini tops then re make again,, (which has no joint bones , I made new ring
more thin which can rotate easily. by moprh or joints I will made)

Now,, I just try to rig for base zero non sexual genesis figure shape first.
I want to assign ridigity group before tweaking weight map.

so I read again and read documents of ridgity map ,, but I can not grab well,,

what is References section?

I assigne faces of rings for redgity group.

(in this case I select center ring parts,, I think if I will need the joint parts of both side ring too,
or I need to assigne each (ring and joints parts) as another ridgity group?

it auto assigen as Particpants,, but In documents, it say "Reference group is important"

I can not clearly which parts I need to assigne as Reference group in ridgity map?

I checked the picture of the documents, but it seems not assign reference group,,
it may decide how to work ridgity weight map around the ring keeping ring shape?

or If I can keep ring shape but it can move with generated morph by around the faces assigend as References?
so I can choose surface what I want around the ring and set it as ridgity References group?

or if I need every poligon which is not assgined as Particpant assigned as "references"?

in picture, face group is just for wight mapping I assigned so, not same about "joint parts",,
(so poligon counts are different, )

Richard Haseltine

The reference is the anchor point, in a sense. In this case you'd want one or more polygons that are enclosed by the fabric, sicne you want the ring to stay inside the fabric as that changes shape but to remain a ring shape.

kitakoredaz

thank you ,,

mm,,,
so I think just all porigons of ring as ridgity group Participants,
then pick up from joint area,
near of the ring poligons which sorrund my ring both side (right and left , and face and back face )
set as reference is good way? Ok,, I try it.

(then I will ask tomorrow,, about buldge weight map,, after finish normal weight ,,^^;
so pleaaaaase teach me again,,)

kitakoredaz

Thanks much ^^ it works well,,
ridigty map helped me lot for adjust my character morph generated to the tops .

when I change genesis shape to my character, the tops is not much fit but ring keep the shape.
so I have not many trouble about ring. I do not need tweak vertices curved scaled rondomely.

then I want to ask one more question about rigidity and transfer utility option. @@;

a) I hope to make clothings obj which can fit to my character fist, basically.
not hope making obj for genesis shape.

because trim , pipe edges, and back surfaces for thickness are difficult to adjust and rearrange well,
after auto generated process work.

when I adjust the generated morph , I can not delete and not use copy and paste.
and there is not so good tool for rearrange corrupted vertices to the line. about these problem, ridgity map
can not solve I think,, so I need bended edges and vertices move and rearrange manually
about each crossed over lines and vertices.

and if I make obj first for my character, I can make trim or edge with good shape and order clean by many tools of modelor.

b) but ,,, after transfer utility with option restore figure shape (reverse shape for zero genesis) ,
in many case I need rearrange the base shape for zero genesis.
ofcourse ringshape will break hardly. in this case I can not use rigidity map,, (like a picture,, before I tried it)

so is there good way to set rigidity map and keep ring shape for character morph shape (first I made,,) ?

I hope ,, after transfer utility rigging , the shape changed for zero genesis shape,
but rigidity protect the ring shape (rigidity maped vertices).

reverse usage of rigidity map,,,

if I change option of transfer utility, can I set rigidity map for the character shape figure first?

(it is more easy, I need only adjust trim or edge,, for zero genesis shape with keep ring shape,,
about my chaarcter, I can reuse obj I made first,,and actually I do not care so much if the clothing is not
so fit or not good looking for zero genesis,, but I need to arrange it,,
because genesis zero shape is base of everything ^^; )

Richard Haseltine

What you can do is model around the morphed shape, then use the reverse source shape option to fit the model to a base Genesis and finally load the original shape as a morph (in place of the auto-generated morph). Though that does assume that your morphed figure is a single morph, not a mixture of several morphs.

kitakoredaz

Richard,, thanks,, but,, I think you said is waht I said,, ^^;
about this simple bikini case, there is not many works . if do not use rigidity group.

but if it has many decoration. or trim, when I use transfer utility reverse option,
the shape will be break about genesis shape much.

(and the shape for mycharacter too, but it is not so heavy,
and I know I can use my moprh obj when I want about my character shape
(it means, I can overwrite generated morph) so , if I made first the clothing for my character,
I need not think about character shape.
but I can not use rigidity grouping for the shape (or figure, if I rigged).
so it cause more difficult to fit the model to a base Genesis (about detail,, I said ,,,)

so I ask can I use rigidity group for the shape obj ,and transfer utillity ,will reverse for genesis.
though other parts may broken, the rigidity parts are safe.^^;

Though that does assume that your morphed figure is a single morph, not a mixture of several morphs

yes,, mix morph can not use transfer utility,

so that everytime I save when i make mix character, as single morph. (though each mixed jcm can not work , in this case,
but I customize jcm for my character so, need not orignal many JCM to make my character)

Edit,, I need to say thanks much richard to answer my quesiton manytimes,, ^^

now I have made alrready bikini tops and bottom which can fit to genesis with good ring shape,
and of course fit to my character well,,,

now I try again,, secret three rigs parented with chest,, ^^; I never give up,,

(I checked chest weight map,, it has not partial weight about rings and around joints parts,, so there may not cause
problem,, and I set more narrow joints parts,, it seems work well now^^;)

maybe my last work is adjust weight map for both collar rotation, and set again ERC to move new three joints
when apply my character morph,,
then,, make new morphs for special movements,, (but it will need ERC too,,, for new joints,,

kitakoredaz

I think again if I miss something,, what Richard say about rigidity group when I want to keep the ring shape for my character morph,
then return to the shape which can fit to genesis keep the ring shape I first made.

then,, I got it. i think if there is more easy way,, but it can work for me,,

1 made obj which can fit to your character morph shape. save it as "mycharacter.obj"
it must need later to overwrite and adjust generation morph.

2 import obj in ds 4.5 by transfer utility . with reverse souce shape from target.
now I have the base figure which fit to genesis. but the ring shape or detail must be broken (many or some)
then set to the genesis my character morph, my character morph will be generated to the base figure.
but it may broken somewhere. rings too.

3 usually first, I want to correct the tops shape for genesis. but now I want to get buck the ring shape first.
so I do not modify the figure for genesis basse shape . import mycharacter.obj by morph loader (pro) again,
then overwrite the generation morph.

4 now my rings shape and clothing shape perfectly fit to my moprh shape. (it is usuall, but it can never good fit to
genesis shape)

5 set rigidity group the ring , of the clothing figure with the character morph value Full.

6 after that, if I turn to the genesis zero shape, the ring can not keep the good shape.
why? because I overwrite the generated morph. so it is out of range from rigidity map. I think,
I checked and saved manytimes this process, but about my morph, it can not work, though if I apply other morph to genesis,
the clothing keep the ring shape (which is applied rigidity map with the good shape)

but,,,, if I do not overwrite the morph, the ring may broken somewhere,,

so I thought first I can not use rigidity map when turn my character shape (not genuin generated morph, overwriteen)
to zero shape.

7 but,, the rigidity map can be used about other morph , which has not overwrite yet.
it is point for this process.

8 then,,I make the new morph from my character shape to zero genesis,,
it is so easy,, zero shape genesis exprot and , in ds set your charactere morph to genesis, (not need think about clothing now)
import again genesis zero shape, with keeping your character shape applied with reverse defomation option.
in morph loader category.

9 now I have two morph,, one is usuall my character morph. zero to one , genesis change my character
but if you apply the moprh to your figure, the clothing rigidity group may not work, because it was overwritten
already. but next morph has not overwritten.

10 turn or keep genesis shape with your character shape by usuall morph. then apply reverse morph.
the reverse morph must be generated clothing which fit to genesis.

11 so my figure shape return to the shape which can fit to genesis (you must need tweak again, )
but it is not so difficult because it protect good ring shape,,,,

12 I just export the figure shape as new obj for genesis shape.
then correct it for genesis shape (but the ring shape is perfect)

13 use transfer utility again,, then overwrite your character morph again,, finished.

Richard Haseltine

Rigidity groups are actually quite limited - all they can do is protect the base shape (having them be able to protect a morphed shape, as you would want, is another much-requested feature) from changing due to an auto-generated morph.

kitakoredaz

Ok I know it ^^ thank you richard much.

I find another way to protect mesh by rigidty group from shape for character morph.

but not mention here. ( maybe, it is not so important who can model easy by 3d tools, and my english is hard broken,
so other people can not grab well what I try,, may be ^^; I say thank you much.

or as for many, they think thre is no difference, first make shape for genesis, or first make shape for character
(for overwrite generated morph)

as for me, it is more easy to make shape first which fit to my character shape.than fit to genesis.
both case I need to tweak the shape which changed by auto defomation process,
so need to choose which is easy.

then as for me it is more easy first make obj, which can almost pefectly fit to my character from zero,
then tweak the changed shape by auto process, for genesis (about it, I can not change poligon counts and delete or
use many tools)

I understand it can not protect shape which overwrited generated morph.and I know it can not protect for joint moving.
and I can not use it for more wide range detail .

but I can use it about botton or ring or some zip, or parts of armor,
from the shape which fit to my character, and keeping the shape by ridigity group
adjust obj for genesis. after make figure by transfer utility set rigidity group again
then it may protect the part for other shape morph when I change genesis shape.

if I need to customize them , just export and tweak, then overwrite generated morph.
I need not tweak about poligons which protect by rigidty group.

as for me, rigidity group is important when arrange and overwrite each generated morph.
after I made the morph for each character, if they do not work, there is no problem,,
because now it has good shape. ^^